Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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09-07-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Allowing burkas is the same as allowing a segment of the population to walk around as anonymous individuals.

We already know how anonymous people behave over the internet. Imagine if you encountered that in your day to day real life.

You're already dealing with a group of people who have the worst morals of any major religion and then you want to allow them to remain anonymous in public ?

Oh fuck no

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-07-2016, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2016 04:41 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(09-07-2016 03:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(09-07-2016 01:58 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  It is not the matter of xenophobia, you can freely wear a hijab which is also a piece of garment that also indicates that you are a Muslim and nobody will have a problem with it. It's a matter of principle , if you allow one group to wear a face concealing garment , you have to allow it to everybody.
So people will start to go around wearing balaclavas and that could lead to security issues.
Demanding that one group be excluded from the rule that in general benefits the society because "how many women in burkas have committed crimes?" or based on their religious customs is not demanding equal treatment, it is demanding special treatment.

I don't think it's only a matter of xenophobia, but I sure think that's a part of it.

Maybe, maybe not.

If Switzerland wanted to send a clear message that (any kind of ) religious fundamentalism is not going to be tolerated is that xenophobia or are they trying to protect their secular society?

That's debatable and requires further investigation. Is wearing a burka a sign of religious fundamentalism ? Is Switzerland taking equally hard line against i.e. Christian or any other fundamentalism or extremism? Is the law actually aimed against burka or there are other factors that were important?

My first guess would be that Swiss decided that the idea "when in Rome...." needs a little push as they certainly don't think that wearing a burka is a part of their culture regardless if born in Switzerland or not.

You can argue against this kind of forced integration, but that is a whole different matter.

In principle, yes of course, government has no business telling people what they should or shouldn't wear, but principles can only take you so far and sometimes they come into conflict with each other.

In the end, religious always bitch how secular laws are oppressing them. When those claims come from Christians we immediately recognize them for what they are , victim card being played, for some reason similar claims coming from Muslims receive unwarranted assumption of legitimacy.

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09-07-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(09-07-2016 04:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(09-07-2016 03:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I don't think it's only a matter of xenophobia, but I sure think that's a part of it.

Maybe, maybe not.

If Switzerland wanted to send a clear message that (any kind of ) religious fundamentalism is not going to be tolerated is that xenophobia or are they trying to protect their secular society?

That's debatable and requires further investigation. Is wearing a burka a sign of religious fundamentalism ? Is Switzerland taking equally hard line against i.e. Christian or any other fundamentalism or extremism? Is the law actually aimed against burka or there are other factors that were important?

My first guess would be that Swiss decided that idea "when in Rome...." needs a little push as they certainly don't think that wearing a burka is a part of their culture regardless if born in Switzerland or not.

You can argue against this kind of forced integration, but that is a whole different matter.

In principle, yes of course, government has no business telling people what they should or shouldn't wear, but principles can only take you so far and sometimes they come into conflict with each other.

In the end, religious always bitch how secular laws are oppressing them. When those claims come from Christians we immediately recognize them for what they are , victim card being played, for some reason similar claims coming from Muslims receive unwarranted assumption of legitimacy.

BINGO! And it's all Rousseau's fault. Big Grin

So the Muslim girl is right... France and Switzerland have their secular Civil Religion and the Saudi's have their theocratic version.

[Image: separation.jpg]

In a nice twist, Rousseau blamed Christianity for this (state religion) as polytheism didn't have the same problem of churches undermining states.

So it comes down to the definition / interpretation of "public sphere". Is it a sphere of competing ideas or a neutral zone?

On the "When in Rome" side we have Thump, SYZ and Min.

(08-07-2016 10:09 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Maybe she should move to a country where wearing a burka is permitted?

When I go to someone else's house, I don't start changing their rules.
(09-07-2016 01:43 AM)SYZ Wrote:  As far as I'm concerned—living as I do in a nominally secular country like Australia—if you wanna migrate here, then you obey our laws as a matter of course. No ifs, buts or maybes. If you must wear all your filthy Dark Ages religious rags, then go and live in an Islamic country FFS.
(09-07-2016 02:24 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

On the "Do your own thing" side we have MD and Thump.

(09-07-2016 01:42 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm not exactly arguing from a position of strength here - I'm just reacting with my gut to the law, it revolts me. I can't in the final instance say completely why, just that it seems like a gross imposition.
(09-07-2016 01:55 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  It does me too, MD, probably for different reasons; I don't like the idea of empowering government to dictate dress. I don't think that's any business of government at all.
...

So the conflict arises regarding what is or is not acceptable in the public sphere... with what should the civil religion concern itself?

Or perhaps more precisely, what is the threshold for tolerance of a monotheism?

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09-07-2016, 06:01 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(08-07-2016 10:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm sorry, unless it's a question of public safety I can't support any government legislating what people should wear. What exactly is so terrible about a burqa as compared to any other garment? Why shouldn't I veil my face if I want to? Sigh...

It is a question of public safety. Drinking Beverage

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09-07-2016, 06:47 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(09-07-2016 04:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(09-07-2016 03:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I don't think it's only a matter of xenophobia, but I sure think that's a part of it.

Maybe, maybe not.

If Switzerland wanted to send a clear message that (any kind of ) religious fundamentalism is not going to be tolerated is that xenophobia or are they trying to protect their secular society?

That's debatable and requires further investigation. Is wearing a burka a sign of religious fundamentalism ? Is Switzerland taking equally hard line against i.e. Christian or any other fundamentalism or extremism? Is the law actually aimed against burka or there are other factors that were important?

My first guess would be that Swiss decided that the idea "when in Rome...." needs a little push as they certainly don't think that wearing a burka is a part of their culture regardless if born in Switzerland or not.

You can argue against this kind of forced integration, but that is a whole different matter.

In principle, yes of course, government has no business telling people what they should or shouldn't wear, but principles can only take you so far and sometimes they come into conflict with each other.

In the end, religious always bitch how secular laws are oppressing them. When those claims come from Christians we immediately recognize them for what they are , victim card being played, for some reason similar claims coming from Muslims receive unwarranted assumption of legitimacy.

As you may be able to tell from my posts thus far, I don't automatically assume the legitimacy of the complaint. And I suspect xenophobia may play a part, but not being on the scene I can't say.

I can say that here in America, similar such actions - protesting a new mosque build, or a Muslim graveyard, are rooted in xenophobia ... and sadly, that's not a trait unique to America.
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09-07-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(09-07-2016 04:13 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Allowing burkas is the same as allowing a segment of the population to walk around as anonymous individuals.

I used to do that all the time when I was a biker wearing a helmet with a dark visor. Don't think there's any law against it in the US. But as has been already pointed out, wouldn't be prudent to walk into a bank like that.

#sigh
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09-07-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Had they banned both burkas and hijabs, I'd say it was anti-Muslim... but since it's just facial covering in public, in a society that relies heavily on cameras rather than a heavy police presence to maintain order, I can understand the ordinance. I don't want to see religious discrimination, and I think the Swiss people need to take a close look at the utility of this law versus the impact it has on a minority religious community for whom this is a tradition.

So my question is this: why not challenge the constitutionality of it in the Swiss courts?

Article 36 (the fundamental rights clause) of the Swiss Constitution reads:

1 Any limitation of a fundamental right requires a legal basis. Grave limitations must be expressly foreseen by statute. Cases of clear and present danger are reserved.
2 Any limitation of a fundamental right must be justified by public interest, or serve for the protection of fundamental rights of other persons.
3 Limitations of fundamental rights must be proportionate to the goals pursued.
4 The essence of fundamental rights is inviolable.


I am certain an argument for the arbitrary and capricious nature of this law could be made in Swiss courts, pointing out that the claims of a need for public safety the legislators were making under subsection 2 are overridden by the proportionality element in 3, an overreach against individual rights and liberties. Then, when the Courts make their decision, it will be a settled issue, and people can choose to leave Switzerland or not, if they disagree with the statute to that degree.

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09-07-2016, 07:42 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
I don't care about the religious part, I don't care whether it's Muslims or not. I want to see people's faces. You don't even know if you are looking at a man or a woman.

Sorry if I am politically incorrect here, I say don't cover your face in public. It's just not safe.

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10-07-2016, 12:54 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
Oh FUCK, the pope (the argentinian one) and the high sparrow are the same guy! Gasp Gasp Gasp Gasp
So who will be doing a walk of atonement?

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10-07-2016, 12:57 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 12:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  So who will be doing a walk of atonement?
Hillary and Trump. Eww. No

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