Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
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10-07-2016, 11:39 PM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Is the American Halloween dangerous, with people walking around in costumes and masks? Should that be made illegal?

It certainly can be. But it's a tradition, a holiday, and one that everyone knows is coming and expects.
Well, burkas are certainly traditional. And everyone knows that some muslim women wear burkas. So it shouldn't raise alarm.

(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Halloween costumes are not a tool used by a religion to enforce male dominance and dehumanize women. So, you know, there is that...
Who knows why a woman is wearing a burka? Has she choosen to do it, was she forced? Who knows?

(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Should hoodies be made illegal?

Hoodies don't cover your face like a balaclava or a burqa does. And if you see someone with a hoodie and their face covered in a balaclava, scarf, or handkerchief? Then you know some shit is going down, because that's not regular attire.
Perhaps they are cold or ugly, who knows. If it scares you, then keep your distance.

(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What about wedding veils?

Not worn everyday, not used as a tool by religion to oppress and dehumanize half the population. They're part of a tradition and a celebration, not everyday attire.
You are certainly assuming alot. Assuming that the woman is forced rather than choosing to wear the burka. I mean, if she complains to the police that someone is forcing her to wear something then that is one thing, but if she is walking around in public in traditional garb, getting on with her life then why would we assume she is forced, abused and unhappy?

(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 10:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Makes no sense to make burka's illegal.

It can, provided you're not trying really hard to stretch things to make bad analogies fit.
The analogy was fine.
They were pointing out that the Swiss government had a law about what the woman could wear on her head.

But perhaps some people took the analogy too far.

No doubt the poster was being cheeky, controversial, attention seeking and thought provoking. Good on them.
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11-07-2016, 12:00 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 12:03 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It certainly can be. But it's a tradition, a holiday, and one that everyone knows is coming and expects.
Well, burkas are certainly traditional. And everyone knows that some muslim women wear burkas. So it shouldn't raise alarm.

We also know that many of them have no fucking choice, and that such attire is imposed upon them by Islam and those with the power and authority granted and enforced by that religion.


(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Halloween costumes are not a tool used by a religion to enforce male dominance and dehumanize women. So, you know, there is that...
Who knows why a woman is wearing a burka? Has she choosen to do it, was she forced? Who knows?

Right, so you entirely ignored the point I raised earlier about how religiously imposed norms might not meet the requirements of informed consent?


(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Hoodies don't cover your face like a balaclava or a burqa does. And if you see someone with a hoodie and their face covered in a balaclava, scarf, or handkerchief? Then you know some shit is going down, because that's not regular attire.
Perhaps they are cold or ugly, who knows. If it scares you, then keep your distance.

If it's cold, that one thing. I live in the snow belt of the Great Lakes in the north eastern United States. Winters here get cold. But if you enter a place of business, you start to remove your scarf or balaclava. You are trying really hard to conflate everyday mandatory attire with specific situations.


(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not worn everyday, not used as a tool by religion to oppress and dehumanize half the population. They're part of a tradition and a celebration, not everyday attire.
You are certainly assuming alot. Assuming that the woman is forced rather than choosing to wear the burka. I mean, if she complains to the police that someone is forcing her to wear something then that is one thing, but if she is walking around in public in traditional garb, getting on with her life then why would we assume she is forced, abused and unhappy?

Again, the distinction between consent and informed consent. A 12 year old can agree to have sex with an adult, but most laws agree that a 12 year old doesn't have the experience to grant informed consent. Someone raised in a fundamentalist religion, it can be argued, likewise can also lack the experience to give informed consent.

In this case, the same religion imposing the burqas, also allows for the marriage of pre-teen girls to adult males. Informed female consent is not part of Sharia Law.


(10-07-2016 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It can, provided you're not trying really hard to stretch things to make bad analogies fit.
The analogy was fine.
They were pointing out that the Swiss government had a law about what the woman could wear on her head.

But perhaps some people took the analogy too far.

No doubt the poster was being cheeky, controversial, attention seeking and thought provoking. Good on them.

Once again, you've ignored the distinction of consent versus informed consent, and have conflated everyday occurrences with specific situations. You are trying to make your bad analogies fit, and they're not working.

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11-07-2016, 12:01 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
EK, didja see my post on page 8 (bottom of the page)?

At what point, according to you, do we treat Muslim females as adults who can make their own decisions?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 12:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(10-07-2016 11:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 10:23 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Even if some adult Muslim woman protest against that, you can make the argument of informed consent; that a woman raised in such an environment arguably doesn't know or has been exposed enough to make an informed decision on the matter.

So now big daddy government will make their decisions for them. Maybe we should just ban Islam as a religion?

Should we also allow 12 year old children to consent to sex with adults? Or should we just recognize that we already accept the distinction between consent and informed consent, and where such informed consent may be lacking, government intervention for the public good is acceptable (and sometimes necessary)? I'm just not excluding this from consideration, in essence, I'm not giving burqas a pass because religion shouldn't just get a pass.

Sharia Law allows for the marriage of pre-teen girls to men, and the consummation of that marriage. Would you apply your same defense of the burqa to pre-teen marriage and statutory rape? Or is big daddy government allowed to step on the freedom of adult men who choose to marry pre-teens? Those girls are brought up in Islam, they know that it's accepted by their religion (as is the burqa). If the 12 year old consented to the marriage, would you allow it? Or do you now understand how the consent of such a girl when she becomes an adult, might not be informed by such an upbringing?

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11-07-2016, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2016 12:23 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:01 AM)morondog Wrote:  At what point, according to you, do we treat Muslim females as adults who can make their own decisions?

Come on now, nobody has carte blanche decision making, and we both know that.

You have the freedom to say whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't protect you from consequences. We still have laws against perjury, libel, and inciting violence or harm. You can own and operate a vehicle, but you have to use your seat belt or helmet as appropriate.

Where you can make an argument in favor of the common good, personal freedom can and does get curtailed. You can make an argument for the public good, both against the anonymity granted by the full burqa, and against it's traditional use as a tool of sexual inequality, and argue that the public and society as a whole is better off without it; even if there are a few outliers who have their freedom curtailed in the process. It's a trade off that is both debated and accepted in many areas, and I fail to see why the burqa should rate a special exemption.

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11-07-2016, 12:29 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:20 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:01 AM)morondog Wrote:  At what point, according to you, do we treat Muslim females as adults who can make their own decisions?

Come on now, nobody has carte blanche decision making, and we both know that.

You have the freedom to say whatever you want, but that freedom doesn't protect you from consequences. We still have laws against perjury, libel, and inciting violence or harm. You can own and operate a vehicle, but you have to use your seat belt or helmet as appropriate.

Where you can make an argument in favor of the common good, personal freedom can and does get curtailed. You can make an argument for the public good, both against the anonymity granted by the full burqa, and against it's traditional use as a tool of sexual inequality, and argue that the public and society as a whole is better off without it; even if there are a few outliers who have their freedom curtailed in the process. It's a trade off that is both debated and accepted in many areas, and I fail to see why the burqa should rate a special exemption.

Where are the burqa-clad gangs terrorising your neighbourhood? If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree. If it's a tool of sexual repression and it's really the men-folks choice to force them to wear it, why does the law punish the *women* with a fine? After all they've apparently got the decision making abilities of 12 year olds.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 12:32 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-07-2016 11:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  So now big daddy government will make their decisions for them. Maybe we should just ban Islam as a religion?

Should we also allow 12 year old children to consent to sex with adults? Or should we just recognize that we already accept the distinction between consent and informed consent, and where such informed consent may be lacking, government intervention for the public good is acceptable (and sometimes necessary)? I'm just not excluding this from consideration, in essence, I'm not giving burqas a pass because religion shouldn't just get a pass.

Sharia Law allows for the marriage of pre-teen girls to men, and the consummation of that marriage. Would you apply your same defense of the burqa to pre-teen marriage and statutory rape? Or is big daddy government allowed to step on the freedom of adult men who choose to marry pre-teens? Those girls are brought up in Islam, they know that it's accepted by their religion (as is the burqa). If the 12 year old consented to the marriage, would you allow it? Or do you now understand how the consent of such a girl when she becomes an adult, might not be informed by such an upbringing?

Informed consent of an adult is completely different from informed consent of a child. You are claiming that *adults* must be treated as children, pretty much explicitly. I don't see how you can justify that.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 12:42 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  Where are the burqa-clad gangs terrorising your neighbourhood? If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree. If it's a tool of sexual repression and it's really the men-folks choice to force them to wear it, why does the law punish the *women* with a fine? After all they've apparently got the decision making abilities of 12 year olds.

"If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree."

If the 12 year old says they want to have sex with an adult of their own free choice, who are you to disagree?

"...why does the law punish the *women* with a fine?"

Why do we punish sex workers, and not exclusively their clients?

I'm not saying it's a good implementation, only that conceptually, I don't have a problem with the government banning the burqa; and I can see a number of public good arguments to be made in favor of it.

Seriously, are you guys not reading anything I write about consent versus informed consent, or are you choosing to ignore it?

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11-07-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 12:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  Where are the burqa-clad gangs terrorising your neighbourhood? If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree. If it's a tool of sexual repression and it's really the men-folks choice to force them to wear it, why does the law punish the *women* with a fine? After all they've apparently got the decision making abilities of 12 year olds.

"If the women say that they want to wear the burqa of their own free choice, who are you to disagree."

If the 12 year old says they want to have sex with an adult of their own free choice, who are you to disagree?

You are saying that in this instance these women cannot possibly make an informed decision of their own and their choice *as adults* to wear a burqa is equivalent to a child's choice to have sex with an adult? And yet legally these women are adults. Unless you'd like to further change Swiss law to state that women are incapable of making their own decisions? Maybe we should just say that an atheist man is required to make decisions *for* them in these cases, such as what clothes they are allowed to wear?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-07-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Muslim girl compares Switzerland to Saudi Arabia
(11-07-2016 12:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Seriously, are you guys not reading anything I write about consent versus informed consent, or are you choosing to ignore it?

I'm reading it, I can't understand where you're coming from though.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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