Muslim march through Birmingham.
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28-11-2014, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2014 12:44 PM by Cetaceaphile.)
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 12:17 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 12:12 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  So unless I can take you personally to one of the common muslim riots you will not believe it? I don't know what else I can do except for showing videos, but if that is not enough then I'm obviously far below your standard of evidence.

By no sane sense could the video in the OP be called a "muslim riot". So there's that.

Nor have you actually shown me any videos. So yes, the entirety of the nothing you've presented does so far fall below my standard of evidence.

Do you have any instances of a riot occurring and being totally unreported by all relevant media - and not just unremarked upon, but wilfully suppressed as you have explicitly alleged?
Yes, you're right I didn't show you, but is there a point even?

And you are still running on a straw man. I never said there was a conspiracy, or that these things are 'totally unreported', or that the knowledge is being actively suppressed. I just said "These things never get into the news,", though maybe I shouldn't use any words like 'never' since it will be taken 100% literally...

I'll pull up a big example;
The Paris riots this summer. A large group of Muslims started rioting and specifically targeting Jewish people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVarDMOXJ-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqI78zI4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrgSTiBY2k

The news however, on the whole, decided to not bother covering it. In fact it was only reported initially by foreign news services, most notably the Israeli news who picked up on it because of the anti-jewish nature of the riot:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-israel...th-police/
Other than that the only half way decent news site to report on it was the Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/arti...otest.html
Who of course love to pick up on things like this so they can spin them into some sort of right wing insanity. And;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19...02638.html
Who didn't really delve into any detail.

All other news sites, at least at the time, ignored the issue, except for a few spin doctor sites which are neither large nor widely considered to be decent news.

There were people I know in France who only heard about it through social media because they had friends in Paris, but that is anecdote so you can ignore it.

You'd expect to find every news site from BBC to The Guardian to Paris Local with heavy coverage of the event, and every newspaper with their own reporting of it. But you do not; you see a small handful of decent news organisations reporting it and the rest just leave it alone.

Meanwhile every news service has been talking about the Ferguson riots non-stop since a day before it even happened, and they'll probably not shut up about it for another month.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../19348931/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30200782
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...am-toxteth <- The Guardian does their usual comparisons to enthrall Londoners
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ferguso...d=0CBYQqAI <- the Mirror had a field day

I encourage you to look at other islamic riots which happened in Europe and Britain over the last few years. I can't be arsed catching all these links for all of them, but the biggest one since Stockholm (which actually only showed up in foreign news and even months later I have not been able to find a Swedish group actually reporting it. I know people in Sweden who claim they think it didn't even happen because they only ever heard about it through social media, but that is anecdotal again) is these Paris riots in July, so I used that for the example.

Don't put words in my mouth though, please.
My personal theory is that there is a fear of retaliation from muslims and from left wing politicians for any news service which properly reports islamic violent. I don't think there is a conspiracy, and neither did I ever mention a conspiracy, or even hint at a conspiracy.

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28-11-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
Oh, and I suppose I could point out: the audio in the OP's post doesn't match the feed. The video skips; the audio doesn't. The sound quality is isolated and mic'd - the video is from a handheld. The audio has a crowd response - the video has people who aren't shouting. The speaker's audio is fixed - the video displays a procession.

Seems legit.

And anybody who actually listened to it would notice that the word kaffir isn't even spoken.

So there's that.

For some reason I'm now very curious what "source" the OP got this from...

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28-11-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  And you are still running on a straw man. I never said there was a conspiracy, or that these things are 'totally unreported', or that the knowledge is being actively suppressed. I just said "These things never get into the news,", though maybe I shouldn't use any words like 'never' since it will be taken 100% literally...

Uh, guy? Your post is right there (until you edit it?) and we can all see what you wrote.

(28-11-2014 11:01 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Luckily though we have Youtube now and everyone has a phone with a camera in it, so we can see these things happening even if the entire of news media doesn't want us to know about it.

Yep.

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I'll pull up a big example;
The Paris riots this summer. A large group of Muslims started rioting and specifically targeting Jewish people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVarDMOXJ-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqI78zI4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrgSTiBY2k

The news however, on the whole, decided to not bother covering it. In fact it was only reported initially by foreign news services, most notably the Israeli news who picked up on it because of the anti-jewish nature of the riot:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-israel...th-police/
Other than that the only half way decent news site to report on it was the Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/arti...otest.html
Who of course love to pick up on things like this so they can spin them into some sort of right wing insanity. And;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19...02638.html
Who didn't really delve into any detail.

All other news sites, at least at the time, ignored the issue, except for a few spin doctor sites which are neither large nor widely considered to be decent news.

Yep. All other news sites ignored it. Except for a couple piddly little obscure spin sites, like, er, these guys:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28402882

Did you even check French media?
http://www.leparisien.fr/val-d-oise-95/e...014935.php
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/sarcelles-enq...52639.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/arti...55770.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/20..._3224.html

I mean, le Monde is only the world's pre-eminent French-language journal of record, so what do they count?

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  There were people I know in France who only heard about it through social media because they had friends in Paris, but that is anecdote so you can ignore it.

You'd expect to find every news site from BBC to The Guardian to Paris Local with heavy coverage of the event, and every newspaper with their own reporting of it. But you do not; you see a small handful of decent news organisations reporting it and the rest just leave it alone.

Are you going somewhere with this? You've walked back from "no coverage" to "oh, but it wasn't heavy coverage"...

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Meanwhile every news service has been talking about the Ferguson riots non-stop since a day before it even happened, and they'll probably not shut up about it for another month.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../19348931/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30200782
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...am-toxteth <- The Guardian does their usual comparisons to enthrall Londoners
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ferguso...d=0CBYQqAI <- the Mirror had a field day

And that's supposed to show... what, exactly?

I'd certainly expect the ongoing events in Ferguson to get more play than a single spasm in Paris, definitively linked to concurrent events in Israel and Palestine.

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I encourage you to look at other islamic riots which happened in Europe and Britain over the last few years. I can't be arsed catching all these links for all of them, but the biggest one since Stockholm (which actually only showed up in foreign news and even months later I have not been able to find a Swedish group actually reporting it. I know people in Sweden who claim they think it didn't even happen because they only ever heard about it through social media, but that is anecdotal again)

Don't put words in my mouth though, please.

Nothing you hadn't already said, bud. Read your own post.

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28-11-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 12:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  And you are still running on a straw man. I never said there was a conspiracy, or that these things are 'totally unreported', or that the knowledge is being actively suppressed. I just said "These things never get into the news,", though maybe I shouldn't use any words like 'never' since it will be taken 100% literally...

Uh, guy? Your post is right there (until you edit it?) and we can all see what you wrote.

(28-11-2014 11:01 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Luckily though we have Youtube now and everyone has a phone with a camera in it, so we can see these things happening even if the entire of news media doesn't want us to know about it.

Yep.

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I'll pull up a big example;
The Paris riots this summer. A large group of Muslims started rioting and specifically targeting Jewish people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVarDMOXJ-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqI78zI4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrgSTiBY2k

The news however, on the whole, decided to not bother covering it. In fact it was only reported initially by foreign news services, most notably the Israeli news who picked up on it because of the anti-jewish nature of the riot:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-israel...th-police/
Other than that the only half way decent news site to report on it was the Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/arti...otest.html
Who of course love to pick up on things like this so they can spin them into some sort of right wing insanity. And;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19...02638.html
Who didn't really delve into any detail.

All other news sites, at least at the time, ignored the issue, except for a few spin doctor sites which are neither large nor widely considered to be decent news.

Yep. All other news sites ignored it. Except for a couple piddly little obscure spin sites, like, er, these guys:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28402882

Did you even check French media?
http://www.leparisien.fr/val-d-oise-95/e...014935.php
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/sarcelles-enq...52639.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/arti...55770.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/20..._3224.html

I mean, le Monde is only the world's pre-eminent French-language journal of record, so what do they count?

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  There were people I know in France who only heard about it through social media because they had friends in Paris, but that is anecdote so you can ignore it.

You'd expect to find every news site from BBC to The Guardian to Paris Local with heavy coverage of the event, and every newspaper with their own reporting of it. But you do not; you see a small handful of decent news organisations reporting it and the rest just leave it alone.

Are you going somewhere with this? You've walked back from "no coverage" to "oh, but it wasn't heavy coverage"...

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Meanwhile every news service has been talking about the Ferguson riots non-stop since a day before it even happened, and they'll probably not shut up about it for another month.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../19348931/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30200782
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...am-toxteth <- The Guardian does their usual comparisons to enthrall Londoners
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ferguso...d=0CBYQqAI <- the Mirror had a field day

And that's supposed to show... what, exactly?

I'd certainly expect the ongoing events in Ferguson to get more play than a single spasm in Paris, definitively linked to concurrent events in Israel and Palestine.

(28-11-2014 12:41 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I encourage you to look at other islamic riots which happened in Europe and Britain over the last few years. I can't be arsed catching all these links for all of them, but the biggest one since Stockholm (which actually only showed up in foreign news and even months later I have not been able to find a Swedish group actually reporting it. I know people in Sweden who claim they think it didn't even happen because they only ever heard about it through social media, but that is anecdotal again)

Don't put words in my mouth though, please.

Nothing you hadn't already said, bud. Read your own post.

I searched for French media, but I found nothing from any recognisable sites. I stand slightly corrected on the point of this massive riot, though I don't think it reflects too much on the much smaller riots; the ones that don't shut down a whole city for the week for example. Many small protests and riots can be seen easily via a youtube search, though finding news lined up with the video date is usually extremely difficult, though of course if you assume that video is fake unless a top brass reporter says it's real I'm not sure how much that would help.

Got nothing to add on the other points, except that comparing news coverage of similar events seems pretty relevant when you're talking about inconsistencies in news coverage...

Sorry I used strong words in my original post, should probably just be super autistic with my language in future and make sure to type like a robot. In fact I'll just go and edit my post because I'm in the habit of editing my posts in order to make myself look better. In fact I edited the last post. You can see the parts where I changed things so that some of your arguments look invalid. Oh look and I rewrote my things with authority. What a naughty boy I am, always editing my posts and manipulating various things. In fact if you look really closely you'll see where I edited out the part about me being secretly being Ken Ham. Actually after you read this I'll just edit it out because that's exactly what I do. I'm a disingenuous, post editing monster, dithenyenar.

Oh, and just to make sure, since you do appear to be attempting a character assassination by accusing me of being a sneak editor, that paragraph above was actually sarcasm.

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28-11-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
Also to point out, all those YouTube videos have comments with a hard bent against Muslims in general, anti-immigration, etc. And, the title of the first video link is inflammatory (Savage Muslims destroying Paris).

Recent xenophobia in Europe are caused by these events and made worse by extremes stirring the pot and making it look like it's all the Muslims doing this. The commentary you have made here echoes that conspiracy and paranoid mindset (they will impose Sharia law, etc). It scares me because many immigrants aren't here to cause destruction or impose their religion on others; they want to escape from the oppressive regimes and miserable lifestyles they were under in places like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, and so forth. But then they run into people who judge them based solely on what few people who share their religion have done.
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28-11-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 01:24 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Also to point out, all those YouTube videos have comments with a hard bent against Muslims in general, anti-immigration, etc. And, the title of the first video link is inflammatory (Savage Muslims destroying Paris).

Recent xenophobia in Europe are caused by these events and made worse by extremes stirring the pot and making it look like it's all the Muslims doing this. The commentary you have made here echoes that conspiracy and paranoid mindset (they will impose Sharia law, etc). It scares me because many immigrants aren't here to cause destruction or impose their religion on others; they want to escape from the oppressive regimes and miserable lifestyles they were under in places like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, and so forth. But then they run into people who judge them based solely on what few people who share their religion have done.

I don't think morons on youtube should have any real influence on the issue to be honest.
Also, bad news, but many countries already have state sanctioned Sharia Courts. Unofficial 'muslim police forces' have been known to set up in England and France also, although they are usually dealt with because the real police really hate 'vigilantes' xD
Actually Britain is going for another route from most and using Sharia to influence country laws (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...efs.html), much in the same way that many banks are adopting Islamic banking recently.

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28-11-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
Allowing Islamic wills isn't adopting Sharia law. Big difference there.
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28-11-2014, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2014 01:44 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 01:18 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I searched for French media, but I found nothing from any recognisable sites. I stand slightly corrected on the point of this massive riot, though I don't think it reflects too much on the much smaller riots; the ones that don't shut down a whole city for the week for example. Many small protests and riots can be seen easily via a youtube search, though finding news lined up with the video date is usually extremely difficult, though of course if you assume that video is fake unless a top brass reporter says it's real I'm not sure how much that would help.

The riots in Paris occurred in two neighbourhoods for two days; not "a whole city for a week".

Coverage you don't know about is still coverage. Would you agree?

The video in this thread's OP - to choose a random example - is extremely fake. Is "evidence" of similar calibre worth much?

But let us grant, then, that many "small" protests and riots occur - and ignore totally who is perpetrating them, why, and where. For the sake of argument, you see. What coverage would you expect? Well - what is small? A single brick through a store window? I don't think that likely to make national headline news, do you? But then we're back to exposure: how would you know what local news reported in all these apparently myriad cases?

(28-11-2014 01:18 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Got nothing to add on the other points, except that comparing news coverage of similar events seems pretty relevant when you're talking about inconsistencies in news coverage...

If you're comparing Sarcelles to Ferguson, then they're not similar events. Which I mentioned in my last post.

(28-11-2014 01:18 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Sorry I used strong words in my original post, should probably just be super autistic with my language in future and make sure to type like a robot. In fact I'll just go and edit my post because I'm in the habit of editing my posts in order to make myself look better. In fact I edited the last post. You can see the parts where I changed things so that some of your arguments look invalid. Oh look and I rewrote my things with authority. What a naughty boy I am, always editing my posts and manipulating various things. In fact if you look really closely you'll see where I edited out the part about me being secretly being Ken Ham. Actually after you read this I'll just edit it out because that's exactly what I do. I'm a disingenuous, post editing monster, dithenyenar.

Say what? What crawled up your ass? You could just say you misspoke and greatly overstated your own argument, that's an option. Or... this. I guess that's another option.

Let's just review, though, shall we? You explicitly alleged deliberate suppression. When this was pointed out to you, you were indignant at what you called misrepresentation. Most observers would say there seems to be a little inconsistency in that stance.

(28-11-2014 01:18 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Oh, and just to make sure, since you do appear to be attempting a character assassination by accusing me of being a sneak editor, that paragraph above was actually sarcasm.

I did not accuse you of anything. Your hilariously petulant defensiveness is kind of amusing, though.

If you made a statement you now do not stand behind, I would say you are wholly entitled to clarify your own words. And there is nothing dishonest in doing so if you make clear what you are doing.

EDIT - addendum (see how that works?) My statement was intended to suggest just that - if you feel your original phrasing was not representative, you may wish to revise it, and I would say it is entirely reasonable to do so. If you did not see it that way - understandable, given my otherwise prone-to-sarcastic tone - then I apologise.

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28-11-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 01:35 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Allowing Islamic wills isn't adopting Sharia law. Big difference there.

But... but... a strictly opt-in parallel process for certain limited areas, you say? We're doomed! DOOOOOOOMED!

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28-11-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Muslim march through Birmingham.
(28-11-2014 11:01 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  These things never get into the news, but they happen all the time. Literally every single day in Leeds there are problems with Islamic 'protestors', and they have a bit of a riot every saturday night in protest to people drinking alcohol, but you never see it reported. Luckily though we have Youtube now and everyone has a phone with a camera in it, so we can see these things happening even if the entire of news media doesn't want us to know about it.

I had assumed that you were going to post plenty of youtube clips of these things happening in the UK, not Paris. And half your links are about the Ferguson riots instead which are irrelevant.

I'm particularly interested about what's going on in the UK because I think the political landscape is going through a major change. I worry about fascism rising in the UK more than any other country. Key to this will be Muslims not integrating and being used by the far right as a means to grab more power. History does not repeat but it does rhyme. So if Muslim patrols really were common then I would be really interested to know about them. I am not saying that they don't happen, but one small group of extremists which the main stream media are pouncing on to find a good story is not particularly interesting in the grand scheme of things compared to seeing it happen on a regular basis.

But as you say, most people have smart phones now, it's easy to post this stuff on youtube. So the lack of videos in the UK of muslims harassing people "Literally every single day in Leeds" suggests that the problem isn't as big as you are making it out to be.
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