Muslim outrage at a billboard
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07-06-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 11:16 AM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  I have to say, I'm a little surprised to see the level of discrimination present on this thread from a community of people who are otherwise rational and measured in how they treat people.

I'm not talking specifically about ridiculing religion in general, but the broad condemnation of an entire group as basically intrinsically evil murderers, despite evidence to the contrary.

IOW, if you reject xtians when they claim all atheists are evil and immoral because of Pol Pot, Stalin, etc you can't say that Islam is religion of violence based on the actions of a minority of practitioners without being a flaming hypocrite.

I'm curious if anyone condemning Muslims actually personally knows one, and how their interactions with that person typically go?

its real simple. when italian jews are killing people we will be banning them too.

its called reality as it is, not what we want reality to be.

course we have idiots that call people a bigots whenever they say anything that is supported by evolution.
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07-06-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 11:16 AM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  IOW, if you reject xtians when they claim all atheists are evil and immoral because of Pol Pot, Stalin, etc you can't say that Islam is religion of violence based on the actions of a minority of practitioners without being a flaming hypocrite.

Oh yes we can, it is not hypocritical at all. Atheism is not an ideology unto itself. It is merely a denial of the unproven assertion that there are deities. It requires no adherence to any specific ideology or belief system, political or otherwise.

Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. may have been atheists, or may have advocated for atheistic states/authorities - but they were not absent an ideology; their ideology WAS Communism. Most Communists may very well be atheists, but being Communist is not in any way a requirement of being an atheist. And when Communist regimes subjugated or repressed their people it was for the defense and furtherance of Communism, not atheism.
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07-06-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 02:00 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 01:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In order to engage in intelligent conversation with a theist about their religion one needs to listen to them and come at them from their understanding rather than your own literal reading.

Posting a billboard with these aggressive statement is not intelligent and is not engaging. It is trollish taunts befitting of an angry child.

I'm sorry, but you're starting to sound like an apologist.

If everything is left up to the "interpretation" of the believer, then you're basically giving them a free pass for any criticism of their written holy books.
A billboard isn't a way to have an intelligent conversation. I don't see the point in the billboard. What are they trying to achieve?

You would come across as a real dick if you walked around telling Christians that their god raped Mary as she slept or that Christians ought to be killing people for working on the Sabbath.

The billboard in question is just outright dicky.
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07-06-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 01:36 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 04:04 AM)Stevil Wrote:  There are about 2 billion Muslims in the world.
If they were all out to kill non Muslims then we would be in for some big problems.

But actually, there are very few terrorist Muslims. A very small percent of Muslims. Don't paint the peaceful ones with your terrorist brush.

So, lets look at the math...

There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

The best estimates are, that about 7% of them are: engaged in active form of terror activity, in some sort of active support, planning or implementing mode.
If that is true, then it seems that 93% of them are not engaged in terror activity.
Do you think those 93% condone rape, or consider that a perfect man is a rapist?
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07-06-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(06-06-2017 07:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Fair dues if you want to have a debate with some religious door knocker selling Salvation. But a billboard saying the Mohammad is a rapist is just a bit far don't you think?

I don't see any reason to embellish; I'd just give straight quotes from the Quran.

Suras 33.50-51 specifically give the Prophet dispensation for practicing slavery and marriage by capture.

Sura 33:

50. O Prophet! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses - whom Allah has given to you, and the daughters of your 'Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your 'Ammah (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khalah (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her; a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (captives or slaves) whom their right hands possess, - in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

51. You (O Muhammad ) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you desire of those whom you have set aside (her turn temporarily), it is no sin on you (to receive her again), that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieved, and may all be pleased with what you give them. Allah knows what is in your hearts. And Allah is Ever All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.

The Noble Quran

Come to that, atheists haven't always been treated all that civilly on billboards:

Anti-God is Anti-American
Imagine No Religion
Why do atheists hate America?

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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07-06-2017, 03:57 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 02:34 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  Boo-fuckity-hoo. No billboard could be as outrageous or offensive as killing people who insult your religion.

We have the phenomena of Daesh fighters, following Mohammad, the Quran, and hadiths enslaving non-Moslem women as sex slaves. Such as the Yazidis and others.

Google "Daesh sex slavery" for more.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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07-06-2017, 04:06 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 11:16 AM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  I'm curious if anyone condemning Muslims actually personally knows one, and how their interactions with that person typically go?

I don't condemn Muslims or, for that matter, Christians.
I do condemn the religions of Islam and Christianity, for a whole host of reasons.

The question, then, is to what degree a follower of an ideology shares complicity for actions committed by others in the name of that ideology?

My best friend, BTW, is an atheist who became a Muslim because he had to, in order to marry his Indonesian wife. Indonesia theoretically has "freedom of religion", but it does not have freedom from religion. In order to complete any official forms -- such as a marriage license -- you must declare a religious affiliation, and "none" is not a choice. Since his wife-to-be was raised Muslim, that was the obvious choice for pacifying the bureaucracy.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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07-06-2017, 05:14 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 01:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There is certainly a problem with non believers cherry picking passages from scripture. Most believers take their scripture as something to be interpreted. The literal reading of the unbeliever is inconsistent with the interpreted understanding of the believer. The unbeliever just comes across as ignorant and aggressive.
First off, "most believers" -- and then you have fundamentalists.

Second, that's a glib argument that assumes that some sort of factual wisdom magically emerges from a work of inconsistent and contradictory fiction so long as it is placed "in context". The problem is that context is wildly variable, even among believers. That is why there are different sects of every major religion, which have historically regarded each other as heretics, to the extent of sometimes going to war over their different interpretations of scripture.

Is a quotation from the middle of Alice Through the Looking Glass a better description of reality if I take the trouble to include the context of the paragraph it appears in? Do I get better insights into modern cosmology from Velikovsky's World's in Collision if I read the whole book, and not just a few chapters?

No, because these are works of fiction.
Why, then, should I expect any different from the Bible or the Quran -- also demonstrably works of fiction?

Thirdly, even believers cherry pick their scripture and take it out of context to suit their own purposes. I was raised Roman Catholic. Unlike many Protestant sects, Roman Catholics were not (and as far as I can tell still are not) encouraged to actually read the Bible. That was -- it was strongly suggested -- best left to priests and other alleged scriptural scholars, who extracted the relevant (to the Church) bits, and read them to us from the pulpit and handed them to us in Missals and Catechisms. In consequence, there are books in the Bible which I literally never heard of in 15 years of church attendance and religious instruction classes -- until I finally got a Bible from the library and read it for myself.

(In retrospect, that is probably a shrewd strategy on the part of the Church, since it was reading the Bible that finally brought me around to acknowledging and accepting my atheism -- and judging by stories I've heard from others, I am far from alone in that regard.)

The point being, that if it's OK for believers with an agenda to take passages from their alleged "holy" books out of context, why shouldn't it be equally alright for non-believers to do the same?

I'm with Dawkins on this: one doesn't have to dignify silly beliefs with respect, though one might occasionally choose to do so, at least temporarily, for purposes of immediate political expediency.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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07-06-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
(07-06-2017 03:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 02:00 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I'm sorry, but you're starting to sound like an apologist.

If everything is left up to the "interpretation" of the believer, then you're basically giving them a free pass for any criticism of their written holy books.
A billboard isn't a way to have an intelligent conversation. I don't see the point in the billboard. What are they trying to achieve?

You would come across as a real dick if you walked around telling Christians that their god raped Mary as she slept or that Christians ought to be killing people for working on the Sabbath.

The billboard in question is just outright dicky.

Ok, so it's clear you're just getting upset over the actual billboard, because you really didn't address what I just said at all.

Are people who put up billboards that proclaim "Jesus Christ is the Son of God And you need to repent!" looking to have an intelligent conversation?
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07-06-2017, 06:17 PM
RE: Muslim outrage at a billboard
The context argument is bullshit anyway.

It doesn't matter if the believer you're talking to actually believes that one should be put to death for working on the Sabbath, or for cursing their parents. The god they believe in in the bible they believe in actually commanded that to happen at one time. It's supposedly the same timeless god who never changes, so whether said believer believes it or not is again...irrelevant.
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