Muslims in Australia
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29-03-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 10:12 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  I know some of them are, my point was not to bundle Muslims into one package.

Then you phrased it wrong. It is language like that which allow populists to gain upper hand - some of Muslims clearly are committing atrocities and your words looked like denial of this clear if unpleasant fact.

Quote:Fair enough, was never big into History.

To be honest Nazis message wasn't only about hate but about reclaiming national pride and something called national community. III Reich was a police state demanding much of it's subjects but it tried to provide them with some comfort too. Look up KDF if you're interested or check Gotz Aly Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-03-2017, 10:31 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2017 10:35 AM by Alla.)
RE: Muslims in Australia
TO JACK HAMMER

Many things that you say are true(facts). There are many, many Muslims who don't believe in freedom and democracy. But I don't want those who are good ones and believe in freedom and democracy to become victims of discrimination.

Yes, I have fear because I don't know which one is good and which one is evil one while I know what the evil ones are planning to do. I would compare it with walking on the field with mines.
But I am not the only one who has this fear.
Let's take "The Book of Mormon" Broadway show. It is insulting to Mormons. But nobody is afraid of Mormons. It is OK to offend them.
Are we going to see similar show about Muhammad? Nope, we won't. They won't dare to offend Muslims. They also have fear, They are afraid of Muslims.
No, no, no, we can't have offensive Mohammad Broadway show. No, no, no, WE can't have Mohammad in urine art. It is too scary. It calls Islam phobia.

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29-03-2017, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2017 10:37 AM by Emma.)
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 09:14 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:You are off-base on the army of Muslims. You're worried about Muslim extremists.
Is this what makes someone a bigot and troll?

What makes what you've said bigoted is that you avoid people who look as though they might be Islamic, based on the prejudiced idea that any one of them could be a terrorist. And that you appear to be intent on holding and defending that position despite the facts that indicate that your behavior is based on irrational fear.

bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
prejudice: an unfair feeling of dislike for a person or group because of race, sex, religion, etc.

(29-03-2017 09:14 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:I'm also worried about Christian extremists. The difference is that I don't assume every Christian-looking person I encounter is a violent extremist.
Please, tell me which Christian organization told its followers to attack any time anywhere anybody. Which Christian organization has an army of fanatics who kill thousands of people and say "death to America, we are coming for you?"

Christianity has a long history of violence.

I'll send you to the Southern Poverty Law Center for a list of Christian Extremist groups that worry me more and affect me more directly than any Muslim groups:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...les/groups

This includes groups such as :
Alliance Defending Freedom-
Founded by some 30 leaders of the Christian Right, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a legal advocacy and training group that specializes in supporting the recriminalization of homosexuality abroad, ending same-sex marriage, and generally making life as difficult as possible for LGBT communities in...

Family Research Council-
The FRC often makes false claims about the LGBT community based on discredited research and junk science. The intention is to denigrate LGBT people as the organization battles against same-sex marriage, hate crime laws, anti-bullying programs and the repeal of the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy.

Stormfront-
But a series of reverses — the 2008 assertion by Black’s wife that she was not a racist, a similar declaration by his son in 2010, and the Southern Poverty Law Center’s exposure of the identity of many Stormfront funders and the fact its registered users have been behind almost 100 murders — have caused a series of problems for the Web forum. Today, Black struggles with a continuing decline in site visitors, chronic financial problems and his own health issues.

This is a long, long list. And I guarantee you that I haven't picked out the most dangerous of them.

Many of these groups work subversively, rather than the over fear that you speak of. And much of the result is in discrimination experienced in day-to-day life by the "out groups" targeted by the hate groups, as opposed to necessarily being murdered outright. That isn't to say that if the groups had their way they wouldn't murder. Because many would, if they could get away with it. We only have to think back to the relatively recent past of the Ku Klux Klan's murderous activities to know that that claim is true. As well, the systematic discrimination that exists in our society that frequently targets black people, Hispanic people, Middle-Eastern people, LGBTQ people, and even atheists.

So while you fear the remote possibility of getting killed by a brown terrorist, I fear the very real possibility of discrimination and physical harm that exists for myself and other minorities by these groups and people who are unknowingly affected by societal messages similar to theirs.

(29-03-2017 09:14 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:That doesn't mean I don't deal with my own prejudices. Everyone does. The difference is that I own it and try to overcome it.
So, you have prejudices, I have prejudices. Everyone does, even every person in this thread who calls Jack Hammer or me a bigot and troll.
Did I say that I am not trying to overcome my fears?
What if I don't know how to overcome my fears? Should I be judged for this? Should I be called a bigot for this?
Emma Wrote:I'm not calling Mormons "morons", but some Mormon beliefs are really wacky to me.
I know you don't, you are very good woman.
That's fine you find some Mormon beliefs wacky. I don't judge you for this. But someone on this forum (I will not mention his name) called Mormons "Morons". He called millions of good people "Morons". NOBODY called him "a bigot" for this. Why nobody told him: "Hey, I am sure there are Mormons who are morons but not all Mormons are morons. Most of Mormons are good people".
Double standard.

I don't disagree that that's a bit of double-standard. A bit less baseless, but a double-standard still. A lot of us have very valid reasons for our dislike or hatred of religion and the religious. Many of us have been or are still being directly hurt by the religious in the name of their religion.

(29-03-2017 09:14 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:Anyway, no one is saying not to take terrorism seriously. But fear and discrimination will not solve terrorism. It will only breed more in the long run.
I agree that neither fear nor discrimination will solve Islamic terrorism problem.
But I don't believe that to have a fear and to talk about it openly is discrimination against all Muslims. I am called a bigot for having fear.

So, how can we solve Islamic terrorism?

We don't solve it- we can't solve it. If we could, we would. If we could solve all terrorism, we would, wouldn't we? I would hope so.

The best we can do is try to mitigate it and reduce it.

One way we can try stop its spread is by decide that we won't give in to demagoguery like Trump's, or to the bigotry and prejudice that results in the unfair treatment of Muslims or any other minority group. Some cowards among those who feel oppressed eventually turn to violent reactionary behavior. Not all terrorism exists for the same reasons, though. So there is no single solution.
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29-03-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 07:53 AM)Jack Hammer Wrote:  ---
You evidently haven't read the Koran or portions of the Hadith! And you likely don't know where to find the atrocities they commit on a DAILY basis. The more people say STOP, the more I will expose the evils of Islam. I have a website that deals specifically with their abominations and how they are all predicted in the bible. Islam is EVIL! Islam is the most oppressive religion in the world to women. Want the verses and the surahs?

I've read the Qur'an.
A couple of times straight through - now, mostly just for reference. I've gone through the Hadith, as well. The Qur'an is extremely derivative of other religious books which preceded it - early Christian bible, the Torah, other regional books of law. There is little difference in the commands that the Qur'an or any of those books lays out for it's followers. They were written down an odd 2000 years ago and prior to that, were passed along verbally.

Today, any "difference" in adherence to those books, would be in those who follow.
While some Jews follow the laws of their "holy books" to the letter, many Jewish people do not adhear to the laws of any religious books and actually have a traditional atheistic vein running through their culture.

There are hundreds of christian sects who follow many different laws straight out of their books, while other sects reject all laws or maybe just a few rules, and/or simply make up their own, all still calling themselves christians.

There are millions of Muslims all over the world who do not follow Islamic laws or directives, at all. Many, in a manner similar to christians, follow whatever way their local priest interprets their laws to be.

The attempt to lump all Muslims into one boat, is similar to saying all christians are exactly alike or all Jews are exactly alike ... all Ukrainians are exactly alike ... all Europeans are exactly alike ... all republicans are exactly alike. It simply is not so.

As far as I'm concerned, people who think that some "being" separate from their existence, actually governs their existence, can fight amongst themselves as to which favored "being" is in charge of them, only. To me, those people aren't all exactly alike, they just have a thing they share that they need to keep to themselves.

Humanity comes down to a matter of trust.
I have to wonder how we've managed to get this far.

Fucking humans. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-03-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
Emma Wrote:What makes what you've said bigoted is that you avoid people who look as though they might be Islamic, based on the prejudiced idea that any one of them could be a terrorist. And that you appear to be intent on holding and defending that position despite the facts that indicate that your behavior is based on irrational fear.
Let's say that I was attacked by a large dog. Or I saw someone was attacked by a large dog.
Do I assume that all large dogs attack people they don't know?
No, I don't. But I have a fear when I see a large dog(dog that doesn't know me) comes towards me. I will want to avoid this dog.

Emma Wrote:I don't disagree that that's a bit of double-standard. A bit less baseless, but a double-standard still. A lot of us have very valid reasons for our dislike or hatred of religion and the religious. Many of us have been or are still being directly hurt by the religious in the name of their religion.
So, should I call those who call Mormons "Morons" bigots?
Should I call those who created "The Book of Mormon" show bigots?

Emma Wrote:We don't solve it- we can't solve it. If we could, we would. If we could solve all terrorism, we would, wouldn't we? I would hope so.
The best we can do is try to mitigate it and reduce it.
I think I can agree with this.

Emma Wrote:One way we can try stop its spread is by decide that we won't give in to demagoguery like Trump's, or to the bigotry and prejudice that results in the unfair treatment of Muslims or any other minority group.
Can we make an insulting "Mohammad" Broadway show? Are we brave enough? I assume good Muslims wouldn't say a word the same way good Mormons don't say a word.

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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29-03-2017, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2017 11:15 AM by kim.)
RE: Muslims in Australia
So, JackH, you seem to be tremendously concerned with the plight of women under sharia law. In some of these United States, lawmakers continue to try to tell women what they can and can not do with their bodies.

Consider

On the whole, I've only seen a handful of very young, gullible females strap on a C4 jacket. Nearly all left letters behind saying they were talked into it by some guy.

It seems to me that who we really need to worry about on this planet is in fact, the male of our species.

Probably best to start avoiding all male fear mongering, extremists. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-03-2017, 11:13 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 10:59 AM)Alla Wrote:  So, should I call those who call Mormons "Morons" bigots?
Should I call those who created "The Book of Mormon" show bigots?

You pick out one single christian sect - out of more than 40.000 different christian denominations, give or take. And you don't even see the ignorance behind this one statement, since you lump each and every muslim into the same group of being afraid of the large dog.

So are you saying that every christian is like a mormon and the ones calling them morons are broad brushing every christian?

You obviously aren't even aware of the large divide between muslims. Shia and Sunni. Entirely different groups. Often times at odds with each other. And then it breaks down into even smaller groups. Thousands of them, who don't all follow the same interpretation of Islam. The cultural divide plays a large role too, since not every muslim comes from the Middle East, nor is the Middle East the only region with a majority muslim population.

To not make that distinction is inherently bigoted. They aren't all the same nor do they want to be the same.
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29-03-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 11:08 AM)kim Wrote:  So, JackH, you seem to be tremendously concerned with the plight of women under sharia law. In some of these United States, lawmakers continue to try to tell women what they can and can not do with their bodies.

Consider

On the whole, I've only seen a handful of very young, gullible females strap on a C4 jacket. Nearly all left letters behind saying they were talked into it by some guy.

It seems to me that who we really need to worry about on this planet is in fact, the male of our species.

Probably best to start with extreamist fear mongers. Thumbsup

Yep. And many on the Right in the US also care about women's issues when it helps them win an argument or further a cause. But beyond that, they stop caring and take no action to actually improve the lives of women.

Funny that.
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29-03-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 10:59 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:What makes what you've said bigoted is that you avoid people who look as though they might be Islamic, based on the prejudiced idea that any one of them could be a terrorist. And that you appear to be intent on holding and defending that position despite the facts that indicate that your behavior is based on irrational fear.
Let's say that I was attacked by a large dog. Or I saw someone was attacked by a large dog.
Do I assume that all large dogs attack people they don't know?
No, I don't. But I have a fear when I see a large dog(dog that doesn't know me) comes towards me. I will want to avoid this dog.

Rather than rely on irrational fear, you can also rely on facts. The fact is that in these United States, you are more likely to be killed by a police officer than by an "Arab looking man across the street" http://theantimedia.org/10-things-more-l...c-terror/. Caveat: you would have to let go off your fact free predilections.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-03-2017, 11:52 AM
RE: Muslims in Australia
(29-03-2017 09:48 AM)Jack Hammer Wrote:  SHARIA

Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Religion of Peace).
A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html

Not all Muslim countries follow that. So, again you are painting everyone with the same broad brush.

The fastest way to create a jihadist is to treat him like he already is one, when he's not.

We had a muslim family in our neighborhood -- they recently moved. I found out later that people in this neighborhood began harassing them after the election. I wish I had known I would certainly reached out to them. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I agreed with that nonsense.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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