Muslims' stories about atheists
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25-06-2016, 03:12 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2016 03:15 AM by SitaSky.)
RE: Muslims stories about athiests
I hear this sometimes from xians, how can you say there is no God? How do explain a sunset? Easily, our planet is caught in the orbit of a star, our sun, it revolves around taking 365 days while it's also spinning taking 24 hours...I'm sure we all know this elementary science, why people block this out to make room for faith is beyond me but that's faith for you.

Also we have natural explanations for how our bodies function. Why didn't the atheists question him? How does he even know one God is controlling everything? Maybe it's multiple, one for the sun, one for breathing, one for sandwiches, one for magical shape-shifting trees, etc.

Just because someone doesn't understand basic science doesn't mean there is a god or gods, just means they don't understand and want to say it's a god, so they seem smart.

I'm still confused by the extra time it took to get there and the tree turning into a boat, why was he late and how did he get there? Making up fantastic lies isn't a good way to start an honest discussion about the true God, he's already lying his ass off. Why believe his ignorant assumptions at that point?

I love how it says the atheist just bowed his head he was just too overwhelmed by the ignorance of the claim most likely.

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25-06-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: Muslims stories about athiests
(24-06-2016 11:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  since my teacher used to tell us this story i liked to share with you all.
like how would you respond if a muslim apologist came with this to you?




""" Many years ago, there once lived a man who didn't believe in Allah. And because he didn't believe in Allah, he would mock at all the muslims about believing in One Allah . It so happened that a Sheikh was told about the man and his wicked ways. He thought long and hard about a plan and, at last, came up with a plan that Insha Allah, would work.

He challenged all those who didn't believe in God and fixed a time and date for this challenge. This challenge was to take place on an open ground, in which the Sheikh would prove to them that there was a God and only One God � Allah.

On this day, thousands of people turned up for the event. Everyone, including the muslims were curious to see how the Sheikh would prove One Allah to them. So the muslims were seated on one side, and the disbelievers on the other side. Five minutes ticked by, then ten . . . But the Sheikh was nowhere to be seen. He had not turned up.

The speaker of the disbelievers stood up and spoke to the people : " It seems that we are all wasting our time ! Even the Sheikh knows that there is no God, that's why he decided not to attend this meeting."

Just at that moment, the Sheikh arrived.

"What took you so long ? It seems that you yourself are in doubt that there is a God!" laughed the disbeliever.

But the Sheikh replied in a calm voice, " You see, on my way here, there was a river to cross. I waited for the boat, but I could not see one. All of a sudden, a nearby tree walked towards the river bank and fell down in front of me. The bark peeled off automatically and started to chop itself into planks, all by itself. Then the bits and the planks began to fix itself and formed into a beautiful boat. I quickly got into the boat and it started to row, all by itself. This is how I got here."

The disbeliever laughed and told all the muslims, "What kind of Sheikh have you elected as your speaker ? He is insane ! How can a tree walk ? How can a tree peel itself ? How can a tree chop itself an and form into a boat ?"

Then Sheikh spoke : " This is just what I wanted to hear ! Just as a tree can't form itself into a boat, how can the sun rise all by itself in the morning at its exact time ?

How can it set each evening at its correct moment and place? Who makes us breathe in air and who makes our heart beat?"

The disbeliever bowed down his head � he was speechless and he had no answer.

"Allah, of course ! He is the Creator of the entire Universe," the Sheikh said.

Such was the effect of the Sheikh's words and his beautiful invitation to Islam, that many of the disbelievers became muslims at the hands of the Sheikh.""


i'm not sure if this proves anything tbh. but most of muslims yell with "checkmate, atheists" every time someone mention that none sensed story.Confused

First;

Hello rosechaos! Big Grin

Second, in response to your question, I would ask;

"Oh? So.... can I have a magical boat too? Since that is the clam being made by the Cleric in this case, is it not?"

Pretty much everything else indicates the lack of understanding of how the Earth rotated around the Sun etc.

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25-06-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Muslims stories about athiests
im guessing nobody in that story has ever opened a science book. kinda diappointed in the unrealistic ending. i was expecting a head to roll.
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25-06-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Muslims stories about athiests
(25-06-2016 05:28 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  ...
i was expecting a head to roll.

I expect the atheist in the story was too, hence the bowed head.

It would have been unusual for a Sheikh to travel without an entourage gifted with scimitar-skills.

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25-06-2016, 06:03 AM
RE: Muslims stories about athiests
(24-06-2016 11:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  since my teacher used to tell us this story i liked to share with you all.
like how would you respond if a muslim apologist came with this to you?




""" Many years ago, there once lived a man who didn't believe in Allah. And because he didn't believe in Allah, he would mock at all the muslims about believing in One Allah . It so happened that a Sheikh was told about the man and his wicked ways. He thought long and hard about a plan and, at last, came up with a plan that Insha Allah, would work.

He challenged all those who didn't believe in God and fixed a time and date for this challenge. This challenge was to take place on an open ground, in which the Sheikh would prove to them that there was a God and only One God � Allah.

On this day, thousands of people turned up for the event. Everyone, including the muslims were curious to see how the Sheikh would prove One Allah to them. So the muslims were seated on one side, and the disbelievers on the other side. Five minutes ticked by, then ten . . . But the Sheikh was nowhere to be seen. He had not turned up.

The speaker of the disbelievers stood up and spoke to the people : " It seems that we are all wasting our time ! Even the Sheikh knows that there is no God, that's why he decided not to attend this meeting."

Just at that moment, the Sheikh arrived.

"What took you so long ? It seems that you yourself are in doubt that there is a God!" laughed the disbeliever.

But the Sheikh replied in a calm voice, " You see, on my way here, there was a river to cross. I waited for the boat, but I could not see one. All of a sudden, a nearby tree walked towards the river bank and fell down in front of me. The bark peeled off automatically and started to chop itself into planks, all by itself. Then the bits and the planks began to fix itself and formed into a beautiful boat. I quickly got into the boat and it started to row, all by itself. This is how I got here."

The disbeliever laughed and told all the muslims, "What kind of Sheikh have you elected as your speaker ? He is insane ! How can a tree walk ? How can a tree peel itself ? How can a tree chop itself an and form into a boat ?"

Then Sheikh spoke : " This is just what I wanted to hear ! Just as a tree can't form itself into a boat, how can the sun rise all by itself in the morning at its exact time ?

How can it set each evening at its correct moment and place? Who makes us breathe in air and who makes our heart beat?"

The disbeliever bowed down his head � he was speechless and he had no answer.

"Allah, of course ! He is the Creator of the entire Universe," the Sheikh said.

Such was the effect of the Sheikh's words and his beautiful invitation to Islam, that many of the disbelievers became muslims at the hands of the Sheikh.""


i'm not sure if this proves anything tbh. but most of muslims yell with "checkmate, atheists" every time someone mention that none sensed story.Confused

So, basically, stripping away the narrative presentation... it's "anecdote about a tree making itself into a boat, sunrise and sunset are regular, plus breathing, plus heartbeats, therefore Allah and Islam".

This is perhaps the stupidest apologetic I've ever heard, and that's saying a LOT. I will work backwards here, breaking down every false assumption and fallacy in the reverse order that it is made.

First, even assuming a god was behind all that, there is no indication that that particular god is the Allah of Islam. None whatsoever. It could just as easily be any creator god from any monotheistic religion. The assertion that it is Allah is as bald and as flat and as unsupported as the most blatant fiction.

For that matter, there is nothing there to imply monotheism either. It could be a host of gods from almost any of the polytheistic religions. The identification of a One God as the cause is without the slightest support. It's like me pointing to a piece of litter on the ground and saying, "See? Indisputible proof that Rosechaos is a litterer. WHO ELSE COULD HAVE DONE THIS?" ANYONE else could have done it.

For that matter, there is nothing here to imply ANY sort of theism. Even if we were assuming some sort of supernatural cause to anything here, from heartbeat to breathing to sunrise to sunset, there are non-theisitic models such as animism and pantheism to explain it. The boat story could easy be explained by some manner of sorcery (perhaps even unconscious) by the sheikh. There is no cause given, AT ALL, to make us think that Allah (of all possible supernatural explanations) is the cause.

Of course, we don't need supernatural causes to explain the boat, either because there's nothing there to explain. It's a story within a story, fiction within fiction. Everything about how the sheikh presents it screams that it is a fiction even within the narrative, meant to simply provoke an explanation of disbelief so that he can launch into his prepared script. But even if it weren't a deliberate fiction of the sheikh within the story, this whole thing is of course a fictional account. If we had a video of something like this happening, we could at least examine it closely looking for evidence of cgi or hidden wires, but here we have nothing, not even witnesses, just the word of a fictional character within a fiction. The only evidence that the boat thing happened, EVEN WITHIN HIS OWN STORY, is his own word and the fact that he eventually made it there... which everyone expected he would anyway.

And again, even if this really happened and the only evidence were something supernatural, we'd have to rule out some sort of non-god magic before we could prove it was a god, and then rule out ALL OF THE OTHER PROPOSED GODS (plus all the other ones we've never dreamed up) before we could conclude that it HAD to be Allah. Only someone who was already a believer in Allah would jump to that conclusion... which shows that this story's intended audience is people who ALREADY BELIEVE. It's not meant to persuade people to the belief. It's meant to reinforce that belief in those who already have it, and to do so by the most threadbare and ludicrous of means with absolutely zero respect given to the believer's intelligence.

This is called a "god of the gaps" argument. Basically it points to some gap in our knowledge, says, "we don't know what caused this", and asserts that the answer must therefore be a god... when it could be a thousand other things instead. It's one of the most pathetic and paltry offerings out there.

Oh, and while we're here, let's talk about straw men. A straw man fallacy is where you either misrepresent an opponent's argument so as to attack something that's easy to attack, but isn't what is actually being argued. It creates a false illusion of success when all you've succeeded in doing is distracting yourself, and maybe your audience. This story doesn't contain an example of such a fallacy, but there is another meaning of the phrase "straw man", and that's where you tell a story of such an opponent and then depict that opponent as weak and anemic and pathetic, or in some other way possessing vices or lacking virtues. You get to tell the story however you want, so you can just describe your opponent any way you want, even the voiceless, logicless, idiotic, unimaginative, pathetic atheist in this story. You could tell the story of a baby going "goo-goo-gah-gah" and the atheist being persuaded by the logic. It doesn't make the logic any more sound.

Moving on to the other pieces of, erm, evidence that something supernatural, of any flavor, is going on at all. I don't know about when this story was first written, but by this point in history biology has advanced to the point where we actually understand how a heartbeat works and how breathing works. The heart is basically one big muscle-pump that drives blood our circulatory systems. It is triggered by regular neuro-electrical impulses, the same as any muscle, though it is controlled subconsciously rather than voluntarily. While the exact shape and development of hearts might vary between species, exactly the same type of organ, doing exactly the same thing in exactly the same way, is found throughout ALL of the vertebrates. There is nothing even hinting at anything supernatural. It's all quite explainable with basic physiology.

This is a god-of-the-gaps argument WITHOUT A GAP. But even if this were written before physiology and biology were understood, back when there was a gap to inartfully shove a god into, it would still be just as awful, because crap like this stops science from happening in the first place. The more people there are shouting "God did it!" about things like heartbeats, the fewer people there are who are curious enough to find out what's really going on. The fewer people there are actually examining the question, the less science gets done, the less we learn, and the fewer life-saving medical procedures we end up with later. The people saying "Allah did it" would never, ever, ever actually learn enough about heartbeats to invent a defibrillator or bypass surgery.

Same with breathing. We now understand how breathing works. The chest cavity works essentially like a big bellows, inflating the lungs by action of the diaphragm muscle (which can be subconsciously controlled like the heart, but can also be consciously overridden). The membranes within the lungs themselves absorb useful gasses (principally oxygen) into the bloodstream and extract from the bloodstream waste gasses (principally carbon dioxide and water vapor) and expel those. Again, every vertebrate except fishes (and even some fishes) has exactly the same thing going on in their bodies. There is no gap in our understanding here for a god to be crammed into. And even if there were such a gap in our understanding at one point, the explanation would have still been basic physiology rather than a god. Assuming a god would have simply blinded us to the truth.

And the sun rising and setting? We know now that the sun is essentially a big ball of hydrogen gas (with some helium doing a lot of glowing and not much else) in a state of constant thermonuclear reaction a bit more than eight light-minutes away from the Earth. The Earth is slowly spinning, roughly one rotation every 24 hours. (Not exactly that, but close). As the earth rotates, someone standing on the surface of the Earth is at various times shielded from the sun, and then has the sun appear to rise over the eastern horizon, then apparently traverse the sky, and then apparently set in the west. It's all kept going by angular momentum. This is basic, basic physics. Just pointing at the phenomenon and screaming "god did it" doesn't make it true. It just makes the screamer an idiot. And it makes everyone who believes the screamer an idiot as well.

God of the gaps is one of the basic, basic, basic errors of religion. It's small and it's pathetic and it would be laughable except for one thing: it gets people killed.

It gets people killed by impeding the science that can save lives. But it's worse than that.

It gets people killed because RELIGION gets people killed.

I look at this crap and I'm enraged. THIS? THIS IS WHAT MUSLIMS THINK OF ATHEISTS? THIS is all it takes to dismiss us? THIS is the sort of garbage that the Muslim governments who execute atheists for disbelief tell themselves? THIS is all it takes to throw an atheist in prison for blaspheme, or for a violent mob of Islamic extremists to hack an atheist to death? I should be angry about the persecution, about the bloody-handed religion leading to straight up murder, and I am, but this here is just insult added to injury.

And I can't tell if it's more insulting to the idiots who believe it, or their victims.

(Yes, I know, not all Muslims. But even if the Muslims authoring and repeating this garbage aren't murderers, they're providing cover and the illusion of justification to those who are.)
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25-06-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: Muslims' stories about atheists
(24-06-2016 11:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  since my teacher used to tell us this story i liked to share with you all.
like how would you respond if a muslim apologist came with this to you?




""" Many years ago, there once lived a man who didn't believe in Allah. And because he didn't believe in Allah, he would mock at all the muslims about believing in One Allah . It so happened that a Sheikh was told about the man and his wicked ways. He thought long and hard about a plan and, at last, came up with a plan that Insha Allah, would work.

He challenged all those who didn't believe in God and fixed a time and date for this challenge. This challenge was to take place on an open ground, in which the Sheikh would prove to them that there was a God and only One God � Allah.

On this day, thousands of people turned up for the event. Everyone, including the muslims were curious to see how the Sheikh would prove One Allah to them. So the muslims were seated on one side, and the disbelievers on the other side. Five minutes ticked by, then ten . . . But the Sheikh was nowhere to be seen. He had not turned up.

The speaker of the disbelievers stood up and spoke to the people : " It seems that we are all wasting our time ! Even the Sheikh knows that there is no God, that's why he decided not to attend this meeting."

Just at that moment, the Sheikh arrived.

"What took you so long ? It seems that you yourself are in doubt that there is a God!" laughed the disbeliever.

But the Sheikh replied in a calm voice, " You see, on my way here, there was a river to cross. I waited for the boat, but I could not see one. All of a sudden, a nearby tree walked towards the river bank and fell down in front of me. The bark peeled off automatically and started to chop itself into planks, all by itself. Then the bits and the planks began to fix itself and formed into a beautiful boat. I quickly got into the boat and it started to row, all by itself. This is how I got here."

The disbeliever laughed and told all the muslims, "What kind of Sheikh have you elected as your speaker ? He is insane ! How can a tree walk ? How can a tree peel itself ? How can a tree chop itself an and form into a boat ?"

Then Sheikh spoke : " This is just what I wanted to hear ! Just as a tree can't form itself into a boat, how can the sun rise all by itself in the morning at its exact time ?

How can it set each evening at its correct moment and place? Who makes us breathe in air and who makes our heart beat?"

The disbeliever bowed down his head � he was speechless and he had no answer.

"Allah, of course ! He is the Creator of the entire Universe," the Sheikh said.

Such was the effect of the Sheikh's words and his beautiful invitation to Islam, that many of the disbelievers became muslims at the hands of the Sheikh.""


i'm not sure if this proves anything but. but most of Muslims yell with "checkmate, atheists" every time someone mention that none sensed story.Confused

In the story the Sheikh is saying that he knows it's impossible for the magic tree event to happen. What he's trying to say is. "You believe in things that are even more impossible like breathing and the sun raise." This is obviously from a time when sci hadn't discovered the reasons, or at least these group of people hadn't learn of them.

Classic god of the gaps scenario. If you can't explain it it's because "Allah" did it.

Christians always post the same types of stories. The disbeliever is always stupefied by the the great wisdom of the believer because God is always on their side. It's a method the is suppose to reassure the believer that they are smart and it's best not to question things because you'll be stupid if you do.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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25-06-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Muslims' stories about atheists
First off his story about a walking tree and everything that happens after that to get him across the river, he admits to being something that doesn't naturally happen.

The walking tree would be supernatural according to him and would be a disturbance from what we observe in nature. It would be naturally impossible.

Then he tries to equate other natural things that do happen like the setting sun, walking, breathing , etc and saying that these are supernatural. In other words, he's saying that walking, breathing, the sun setting are naturally impossible.

In essence, a tree that doesn't walk and a tree that does are both naturally and equally impossible.

If the sheikh was murdered, one could argue to his followers that his murder is the work of allah, since allah controls all actions.

And this is the problem with islam.
Justifying atrocities by believing that all acts, no matter how cruel or injust, are acts of allah and the person committing the act holds no responsibility.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-06-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: Muslims' stories about atheists
(24-06-2016 11:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  since my teacher used to tell us this story i liked to share with you all.
like how would you respond if a muslim apologist came with this to you?




""" Many years ago, there once lived a man who didn't believe in Allah. And because he didn't believe in Allah, he would mock at all the muslims about believing in One Allah . It so happened that a Sheikh was told about the man and his wicked ways. He thought long and hard about a plan and, at last, came up with a plan that Insha Allah, would work.

He challenged all those who didn't believe in God and fixed a time and date for this challenge. This challenge was to take place on an open ground, in which the Sheikh would prove to them that there was a God and only One God � Allah.

On this day, thousands of people turned up for the event. Everyone, including the muslims were curious to see how the Sheikh would prove One Allah to them. So the muslims were seated on one side, and the disbelievers on the other side. Five minutes ticked by, then ten . . . But the Sheikh was nowhere to be seen. He had not turned up.

The speaker of the disbelievers stood up and spoke to the people : " It seems that we are all wasting our time ! Even the Sheikh knows that there is no God, that's why he decided not to attend this meeting."

Just at that moment, the Sheikh arrived.

"What took you so long ? It seems that you yourself are in doubt that there is a God!" laughed the disbeliever.

But the Sheikh replied in a calm voice, " You see, on my way here, there was a river to cross. I waited for the boat, but I could not see one. All of a sudden, a nearby tree walked towards the river bank and fell down in front of me. The bark peeled off automatically and started to chop itself into planks, all by itself. Then the bits and the planks began to fix itself and formed into a beautiful boat. I quickly got into the boat and it started to row, all by itself. This is how I got here."

The disbeliever laughed and told all the muslims, "What kind of Sheikh have you elected as your speaker ? He is insane ! How can a tree walk ? How can a tree peel itself ? How can a tree chop itself an and form into a boat ?"

Then Sheikh spoke : " This is just what I wanted to hear ! Just as a tree can't form itself into a boat, how can the sun rise all by itself in the morning at its exact time ?

How can it set each evening at its correct moment and place? Who makes us breathe in air and who makes our heart beat?"

The disbeliever bowed down his head � he was speechless and he had no answer.

"Allah, of course ! He is the Creator of the entire Universe," the Sheikh said.

Such was the effect of the Sheikh's words and his beautiful invitation to Islam, that many of the disbelievers became muslims at the hands of the Sheikh.""


i'm not sure if this proves anything tbh. but most of muslims yell with "checkmate, atheists" every time someone mention that none sensed story.Confused

I've heard this story before, and many more like it. Its typical theist nonsense argument.

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25-06-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Muslims' stories about atheists
Reltzik... I can't "Like" that post enough times. So here are 10 more Likes, and a +1 Rep point that is way overdue.

That was all I could think, when I read that story, too. "They are imprisoning and killing us for being infidels, on the basis of THIS sort of thinking?!?"

Argh!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-06-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Muslims' stories about atheists
(24-06-2016 11:46 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  since my teacher used to tell us this story i liked to share with you all.
like how would you respond if a muslim apologist came with this to you?




""" Many years ago, there once lived a man who didn't believe in Allah. And because he didn't believe in Allah, he would mock at all the muslims about believing in One Allah . It so happened that a Sheikh was told about the man and his wicked ways. He thought long and hard about a plan and, at last, came up with a plan that Insha Allah, would work.

He challenged all those who didn't believe in God and fixed a time and date for this challenge. This challenge was to take place on an open ground, in which the Sheikh would prove to them that there was a God and only One God � Allah.

On this day, thousands of people turned up for the event. Everyone, including the muslims were curious to see how the Sheikh would prove One Allah to them. So the muslims were seated on one side, and the disbelievers on the other side. Five minutes ticked by, then ten . . . But the Sheikh was nowhere to be seen. He had not turned up.

The speaker of the disbelievers stood up and spoke to the people : " It seems that we are all wasting our time ! Even the Sheikh knows that there is no God, that's why he decided not to attend this meeting."

Just at that moment, the Sheikh arrived.

"What took you so long ? It seems that you yourself are in doubt that there is a God!" laughed the disbeliever.

But the Sheikh replied in a calm voice, " You see, on my way here, there was a river to cross. I waited for the boat, but I could not see one. All of a sudden, a nearby tree walked towards the river bank and fell down in front of me. The bark peeled off automatically and started to chop itself into planks, all by itself. Then the bits and the planks began to fix itself and formed into a beautiful boat. I quickly got into the boat and it started to row, all by itself. This is how I got here."

The disbeliever laughed and told all the muslims, "What kind of Sheikh have you elected as your speaker ? He is insane ! How can a tree walk ? How can a tree peel itself ? How can a tree chop itself an and form into a boat ?"

Then Sheikh spoke : " This is just what I wanted to hear ! Just as a tree can't form itself into a boat, how can the sun rise all by itself in the morning at its exact time ?

How can it set each evening at its correct moment and place? Who makes us breathe in air and who makes our heart beat?"

The disbeliever bowed down his head � he was speechless and he had no answer.

"Allah, of course ! He is the Creator of the entire Universe," the Sheikh said.

Such was the effect of the Sheikh's words and his beautiful invitation to Islam, that many of the disbelievers became muslims at the hands of the Sheikh.""


i'm not sure if this proves anything tbh. but most of muslims yell with "checkmate, atheists" every time someone mention that none sensed story.Confused

So God/Allah is rotary momentum and biochemistry that some primitive didn't understand? Colour me unimpressed.

Next time somebody uses one of these on you propose a race. You will both board a plane which will ascend to 2 miles altitude. At the same time you will both jump from the plane. You will have a parachute and they will have their faith. One of you will reach the ground first and one of you will win.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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