Must We Always Forgive?
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21-11-2012, 12:37 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Dom,
I think the sweet lady is just being honest.
Sometimes people do things that aren't forgivable. The concept of having to forgive certain things is disgusting. It's a different thing when someone has done or said something that causes hurt and/or harm but did it without malice.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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21-11-2012, 02:00 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(21-11-2012 12:37 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Dom,
I think the sweet lady is just being honest.
Sometimes people do things that aren't forgivable. The concept of having to forgive certain things is disgusting. It's a different thing when someone has done or said something that causes hurt and/or harm but did it without malice.


Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if there wasn't just some faulty wiring in his brain. Probably there was. But he was also very intelligent and knew exactly what he was doing. Me - he couldn't mess with once I wasn't a child anymore. Not for lack of trying though.

But he messed with my mom - and that is just unforgivable.

I suppose most people draw the line when someone messes with their mom. That would explain why cusswords in most languages accuse people of messing with their moms - just despicable. And no - it wasn't sexual (just saying that because the word motherfucker came to mind as I wrote this).

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21-11-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
I guess I tend to reserve my forgiveness for those I care for the most or for those who seem to need it. Sometimes I do these spontaneously kind things for total strangers and then wonder later whether I should have. Forgiveness can be one of those things.

But, I can not abide hate. If I ever catch myself feeling something even resembling hate I immediately check myself. When I see other people who seem to feel their hate is justified or natural they almost always are the sort of people I could never get along with. It just feels like such an unhealthy thing...like smoking. It makes me feel tainted. But, I don't purge this emotion by forgiving its target. What I tend to do is analyze and monitor. I guess you could say those who wrong me "make the list". This is not a hate list. This is a list of people to watch out for. A list of people who have proven they can be untrustworthy, even if only occasionally.

I just can't live with hate. But yeah, forgiveness can be hard to come by. But I never feel as though it's compulsory. Who told you that nonsense?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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21-11-2012, 04:55 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

You mistake me. I was actually asking you a question. I'm curious about what you have to say about it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-11-2012, 05:12 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(20-11-2012 10:14 PM)amyb Wrote:  Of course it's not a "must."

However, when people are assholes over and over, and show no signs of stopping, I do cut them out of my life. I'd say I do also forgive them, in the sense of not spending my days hating them, but that doesn't mean I want to keep putting up with their shit.
The not spending days hating them part is really really hard for me. But the cutting out part I do okay. Smile

Any tips on not thinking on them periodically and getting all mad 'cos they're such dorkuses?

"The amazing thing is that every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. ... So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today." -- Lawrence Krauss
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21-11-2012, 05:44 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(21-11-2012 04:55 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

You mistake me. I was actually asking you a question. I'm curious about what you have to say about it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Sorry, I thought it was rhetorical. Consider

Ghost Wrote:What would you say if I suggested that forgiveness and reconciliation are not unilateral processes? Ie, accepting your boss' behaviour is one thing, but forgiveness and reconciliation can only come in partnership with him. Also, that perhaps acceptance is simply a form of inaction and apathy and is actually disempowering.

I definitely agree that forgiveness and reconciliation is a mutual process.

But I was addressing only acceptance, assuming that a behavioral change was not going to happen. Perhaps that wasn't clear.
I have been in situations where the boss's behavior was not going to change, that cooperation wasn't even possible.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2012, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2012 06:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(20-11-2012 10:05 PM)kpax Wrote:  When I was a Christian I almost felt obligated to forgive those who did me wrong. Now I no longer feel that obligation.

Maybe in cases where it's better to forgive than to harbor things to save a friendship, relationship or relations with a family member but what about in instances when the person is the type to completely walk all over you over and over again or take advantage of you?

Would it be okay not to forgive?

Must I forgive, no. Will I forgive, yes. 'Cause nobody gets a hold on GirlyMan. As my son pointed out when he foolishly challenged me in the dohyō, "I can't get a grip on your fatness." And me not forgiving means somebody's giving me a wedgie. I don't get wedgied, I give wedgies. ... bitches.

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21-11-2012, 07:11 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

Thanks. And I agree with what you agree with Cool

Quote:But I was addressing only acceptance, assuming that a behavioral change was not going to happen.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I'm driving at. There is an assumption there "that change will not (cannot?) occur" that is accepted as a fact. So any further attempts at change or amelioration are abandoned, which reinforces the assumption. "See, there's no change in this situation I am doing nothing to change." I think that's why I get the sense that this sort of strategy is ultimately disempowering.

I think the danger, furthermore, is that it's not just the attempt to repair the relationship that is abandoned, but that the other person is abandoned as well.

Hey, Smurf.

Quote:When I see other people who seem to feel their hate is justified or
natural they almost always are the sort of people I could never get
along with.

Is that not itself just a form of hate? Love sees through such limitations, does it not?

I remember once (long story short) me in a club, neo-Nazi skinhead in club, he dropped his cigarettes, I picked them up and handed them to him. I could see his brain explode. I could honestly see his mind change. He couldn't believe that a black man, who he would hospitalise or kill just for existing, the object of his hate, would go out of his way to commit a simple act of kindness. My love decimated his hate. It was a beautiful moment in time for me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-11-2012, 07:55 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Matt, I get what you say regarding the guy in the club and I have used similar actions.

But there is a person from my life that I have turned the other cheek for so many times that I eventually couldn't take it any more. Knowing someone is going to be horrible to you no matter how hard you try eventually takes a toll. It became demeaning for me to just walk into that trap again and again. The result would always be the same. Even after I walked away and asked the person to please leave me alone, they continued to lie about me, to attack me and my kids verbally to anyone that would listen. I forgave and forgave and forgave and took emotional beating after emotional beating, as did my kids. Forgiveness had no effect. There's no hate any more...I just had to move on to protect myself and my kids.

The things taken from me by this person can never be restored.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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21-11-2012, 10:07 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Anjele.

Like I said earlier, there is a difference between forgiveness and tit for tat. Tit for tat says trust people and cooperate to begin, but match their last move. If their last move was cooperation, cooperate. If it was, say, lies and betrayal, then retaliate. Tit for tat. That being said, that strategy can quickly devolve into a positive feedback loop and the only way tit for tat works as a strategy for social living is if there is a mechanism to return to equilibrium. That mechanism is forgiveness.

As I was mentioning to Chas, reconciliation is collaborative rather than unilateral. In order to reconcile and repair the harm, both parties have to be involved. If this person cannot help but abuse you, you can forgive them unilaterally, but there will be no reconciliation for as long as they remain abusive.

For example, say this person is a heroin addict. The drug has taken over and ruined their life and altered their personality. They steal, lie, cheat and hurt the ones they love. If they tell the truth, you tell the truth. Tit for tat. If they lie to you, you retaliate. Tit for tat. That being said, we can still love this person, empathise with what they are going through and forgive them for what they have done because we realise that this is a human being grappling with some very serious substance abuse issues, issues that anyone caught in that problem would face, even ourselves (or conversely, we could imagine that they are a junky, not a human being, it's all their fault, they aren't worth forgiving let alone reconciling with, there's something wrong with them and we would never do those things, let alone be stupid enough to get into doing heroin in the first place because they are bad an we are good). But for reconciliation to occur, for the harm to be repaired, they need to be a part of the process.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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