Must We Always Forgive?
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22-11-2012, 12:40 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(21-11-2012 07:11 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Thanks. And I agree with what you agree with Cool

Quote:But I was addressing only acceptance, assuming that a behavioral change was not going to happen.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I'm driving at. There is an assumption there "that change will not (cannot?) occur" that is accepted as a fact. So any further attempts at change or amelioration are abandoned, which reinforces the assumption. "See, there's no change in this situation I am doing nothing to change." I think that's why I get the sense that this sort of strategy is ultimately disempowering.

I think the danger, furthermore, is that it's not just the attempt to repair the relationship that is abandoned, but that the other person is abandoned as well.

When change is not possible, acceptance is empowering. The hard part is in determining this.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-11-2012, 01:56 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hell no we don't need to forgive. I still have bad feelings about my second grade teacher and a few people I went to school with (some of which still have parents in the neighborhood where my parents live. I don't spend my life dwelling on what they did, but I wait for the day I can go on the attack and make at least one of them cry. If I ever see that teacher again though, it will be tough not to pop her head like a zit. I will restrain myself, but the temptation will be there. Unless of course she is old and in pain and wants to die. In which case I would do almost anything to keep her going longer and prolong the suffering.
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22-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Must We Always Forgive?
(22-11-2012 12:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 07:11 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Thanks. And I agree with what you agree with Cool


Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I'm driving at. There is an assumption there "that change will not (cannot?) occur" that is accepted as a fact. So any further attempts at change or amelioration are abandoned, which reinforces the assumption. "See, there's no change in this situation I am doing nothing to change." I think that's why I get the sense that this sort of strategy is ultimately disempowering.

I think the danger, furthermore, is that it's not just the attempt to repair the relationship that is abandoned, but that the other person is abandoned as well.

When change is not possible, acceptance is empowering. The hard part is in determining this.

Francis of Assisi? Is that you? Consider

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22-11-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

I just have an issue with the very notion that change can be impossible. How does one determine this? The only way I can imagine is either by not trying or by abandoning the process after hitting a few road blocks. But neither of those are proof it's impossible, it's just defeatism. I think that everyone can change. Have we learned nothing from the Grinch?

Hey, Erxomai.

Not fair. Chas is not a sissy.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-11-2012, 08:43 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(20-11-2012 10:05 PM)kpax Wrote:  When I was a Christian I almost felt obligated to forgive those who did me wrong. Now I no longer feel that obligation.

Maybe in cases where it's better to forgive than to harbor things to save a friendship, relationship or relations with a family member but what about in instances when the person is the type to completely walk all over you over and over again or take advantage of you?

Would it be okay not to forgive?


When you get into a minor argument with someone, its best to forgive and move forward, people make mistakes, we are human after all but when someone deliberately tries to sabotage you, you should either forget them completely with total forgiveness, do not forgive them and still move away from them or seek revenge in some way.
2 Examples from my own life
I met this woman who actively tried to sabotage my work relations, she went to other stores and talked about me behind my back-she claimed she was my friend, then she came to me and told me malicious things about the other stores, she never suspected we would get together and talk about what was being said but we did-I cut her out of my life completely, have never forgiven her and made sure she was blackballed from the industry (you may think the last part harsh but its what my beliefs teach us to do) However, I just learned that one store gave her another chance, I told the owner of the store that I do not believe in second chances when a major offense has occured because if the person did it once to you, they will do it again!
Another example was a friend/neighbor that I would label as a Psychic Vampire, a whore and a drunk and the gossip of the complex-and even after she moved to New Orleans last year she still calls people here to find out the dirt of what is happening here, she is hard to be around and just sucks the energy out of the room (Psychic vampire). She spreads malicious gossip about people, she told people once that my mom was a gambleholic who didnt have furniture and sat on the floor, she told neighbors that I didnt know how to use the toilet and instead used the tub for all my needs, things like that, despite her behavior she loved to buy gifts for people and spent ridiculous amounts of money on strangers and friends alike, I pretended to forgive her, used her as much as I could and then she moved-but...Christmas is coming! Tongue
Forgiveness is NOT something anyone is required to do, who would require it of you? There is no external deity, no man or church should have control over you, so no, its not a requirement and yes its ok to not forgive someone.
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22-11-2012, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2012 09:27 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(22-11-2012 08:43 AM)Irishdize Wrote:  
(20-11-2012 10:05 PM)kpax Wrote:  When I was a Christian I almost felt obligated to forgive those who did me wrong. Now I no longer feel that obligation.

Maybe in cases where it's better to forgive than to harbor things to save a friendship, relationship or relations with a family member but what about in instances when the person is the type to completely walk all over you over and over again or take advantage of you?

Would it be okay not to forgive?


When you get into a minor argument with someone, its best to forgive and move forward, people make mistakes, we are human after all but when someone deliberately tries to sabotage you, you should either forget them completely with total forgiveness, do not forgive them and still move away from them or seek revenge in some way.
2 Examples from my own life
I met this woman who actively tried to sabotage my work relations, she went to other stores and talked about me behind my back-she claimed she was my friend, then she came to me and told me malicious things about the other stores, she never suspected we would get together and talk about what was being said but we did-I cut her out of my life completely, have never forgiven her and made sure she was blackballed from the industry (you may think the last part harsh but its what my beliefs teach us to do) However, I just learned that one store gave her another chance, I told the owner of the store that I do not believe in second chances when a major offense has occured because if the person did it once to you, they will do it again!
Another example was a friend/neighbor that I would label as a Psychic Vampire, a whore and a drunk and the gossip of the complex-and even after she moved to New Orleans last year she still calls people here to find out the dirt of what is happening here, she is hard to be around and just sucks the energy out of the room (Psychic vampire). She spreads malicious gossip about people, she told people once that my mom was a gambleholic who didnt have furniture and sat on the floor, she told neighbors that I didnt know how to use the toilet and instead used the tub for all my needs, things like that, despite her behavior she loved to buy gifts for people and spent ridiculous amounts of money on strangers and friends alike, I pretended to forgive her, used her as much as I could and then she moved-but...Christmas is coming! Tongue
Forgiveness is NOT something anyone is required to do, who would require it of you? There is no external deity, no man or church should have control over you, so no, its not a requirement and yes its ok to not forgive someone.
Ah, but both women and men do have control over you.

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22-11-2012, 09:22 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(22-11-2012 08:29 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

I just have an issue with the very notion that change can be impossible. How does one determine this? The only way I can imagine is either by not trying or by abandoning the process after hitting a few road blocks. But neither of those are proof it's impossible, it's just defeatism. I think that everyone can change. Have we learned nothing from the Grinch?
I hear you, Matt, but there often comes a point where one sees that the reality is that the other person will not change. It is not always easy, and we make mistakes, but it can't go on for ever.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-11-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(20-11-2012 10:05 PM)kpax Wrote:  When I was a Christian I almost felt obligated to forgive those who did me wrong. Now I no longer feel that obligation.

Maybe in cases where it's better to forgive than to harbor things to save a friendship, relationship or relations with a family member but what about in instances when the person is the type to completely walk all over you over and over again or take advantage of you?

Would it be okay not to forgive?

Yeah, I was just talking about this with my wife. Absolutely, it is okay to not forgive in certain instances. I have a circumstance in which a relative had done some real harm to me that make it impossible for me to trust him, so I no longer have a relationship with this person nor do I wish to. I have no malice towards him and really don't give him a thought. In a case like this it is totally unnecessary for me to forgive this person. However, if he came to me and acknowledged his wrongs and tried to make amends, then certainly, I would forgive this person or at least give it serious consideration.
From my perspective forgiveness is good for both the receiver and giver, but it is not always necessary or even desirable.
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23-11-2012, 12:01 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(22-11-2012 09:20 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(22-11-2012 08:43 AM)Irishdize Wrote:  When you get into a minor argument with someone, its best to forgive and move forward, people make mistakes, we are human after all but when someone deliberately tries to sabotage you, you should either forget them completely with total forgiveness, do not forgive them and still move away from them or seek revenge in some way.
2 Examples from my own life
I met this woman who actively tried to sabotage my work relations, she went to other stores and talked about me behind my back-she claimed she was my friend, then she came to me and told me malicious things about the other stores, she never suspected we would get together and talk about what was being said but we did-I cut her out of my life completely, have never forgiven her and made sure she was blackballed from the industry (you may think the last part harsh but its what my beliefs teach us to do) However, I just learned that one store gave her another chance, I told the owner of the store that I do not believe in second chances when a major offense has occured because if the person did it once to you, they will do it again!
Another example was a friend/neighbor that I would label as a Psychic Vampire, a whore and a drunk and the gossip of the complex-and even after she moved to New Orleans last year she still calls people here to find out the dirt of what is happening here, she is hard to be around and just sucks the energy out of the room (Psychic vampire). She spreads malicious gossip about people, she told people once that my mom was a gambleholic who didnt have furniture and sat on the floor, she told neighbors that I didnt know how to use the toilet and instead used the tub for all my needs, things like that, despite her behavior she loved to buy gifts for people and spent ridiculous amounts of money on strangers and friends alike, I pretended to forgive her, used her as much as I could and then she moved-but...Christmas is coming! Tongue
Forgiveness is NOT something anyone is required to do, who would require it of you? There is no external deity, no man or church should have control over you, so no, its not a requirement and yes its ok to not forgive someone.
Ah, but both women and men do have control over you.

Oh?
who?
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23-11-2012, 08:21 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

Is it reality? If I say, "I'll never win an Olympic gold medal," and I don't ever try to go to the Olympics, that's not a reality. It's a situation that is born of an assumption that has led me to inaction. I smoked for 12 years. I was a fiendish smoker. Many people accepted a reality where I would never quit. When I up and quit cold turkey out of the blue one day, people were shocked. Like really shocked. But all notions of won't quit, can't quit, will never quit, went out the window. Those notions were never true. If we accept that someone won't change, we're accepting an assumption, not a fact.

I think it's reasonable to accept that the reconciliation process, at any given moment, is not going well or is not bearing fruit. But that's different than walking away from the table.

And again, we can't confuse any of this with tit for tat. If someone, like your boss, is actively abusing you, retaliate (in game theory terms, not going postal terms). But assuming someone can't change is not accepting of a fact, it is relegating oneself to an assumption of futility.

But love, it should be said, cuts through all of this. Love keeps a chair at the table. Love keeps hope in our heart. Love trusts that reconciliation is possible. Ain't love grand Cool

As for insanity, if we forgive, then we are always achieving the same outcome, we are forgiving. No insanity there Cool

As for reconciliation, Tutu said it the best. "Reconciliation is not for sissies."

Lol. Fuck that man is awesome Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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