Must We Always Forgive?
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23-11-2012, 08:59 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(23-11-2012 08:21 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Is it reality? If I say, "I'll never win an Olympic gold medal," and I don't ever try to go to the Olympics, that's not a reality. It's a situation that is born of an assumption that has led me to inaction. I smoked for 12 years. I was a fiendish smoker. Many people accepted a reality where I would never quit. When I up and quit cold turkey out of the blue one day, people were shocked. Like really shocked. But all notions of won't quit, can't quit, will never quit, went out the window. Those notions were never true. If we accept that someone won't change, we're accepting an assumption, not a fact.

I think it's reasonable to accept that the reconciliation process, at any given moment, is not going well or is not bearing fruit. But that's different than walking away from the table.

And again, we can't confuse any of this with tit for tat. If someone, like your boss, is actively abusing you, retaliate (in game theory terms, not going postal terms). But assuming someone can't change is not accepting of a fact, it is relegating oneself to an assumption of futility.

But love, it should be said, cuts through all of this. Love keeps a chair at the table. Love keeps hope in our heart. Love trusts that reconciliation is possible. Ain't love grand Cool

As for insanity, if we forgive, then we are always achieving the same outcome, we are forgiving. No insanity there Cool

As for reconciliation, Tutu said it the best. "Reconciliation is not for sissies."

Lol. Fuck that man is awesome Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
I like your argument, but I can't entirely agree. The statement "I will never play in the NBA" was always a practical truth for me - I'm 5'4". The statement "I will never play in the NHL" was less true because I was quite a good hockey player, but didn't commit to it.

But to the point, people are capable of only so much. While I agree with your ideal, I don't see it as practicable, at least not for most.

After expending reasonable effort in one direction, acceptance is the decision that a different path is required.

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23-11-2012, 04:11 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

Glad you like it Cool

Genetic limitations are genetic limitations. There's nothing we can do about those, outside of plastic surgery. And that's reasonable. But attitudes, relationships, levels of trust, these have nothing to do with our physical realities. These things can change and change and change again. So at the end of the day, I just can't accept the idea of accepting because that to me seems like there is some sort of proven reality when there is no such thing. Giving up seems like a better descriptor.

If the different path is a different approach to reconciliation, that makes sense. If the different path takes us away from reconciliation, then that's running away, not accepting.

But we always have to remember that maintaining interpersonal relationships is a skill set. It doesn't surprise me at all that so many people are so bankrupt in this area because we devalue it so much. We don't teach that skill set. But just because I can't play the clarinet today, doesn't mean I can't tomorrow.






Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-11-2012, 04:13 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(23-11-2012 04:11 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Glad you like it Cool

Genetic limitations are genetic limitations. There's nothing we can do about those, outside of plastic surgery. And that's reasonable. But attitudes, relationships, levels of trust, these have nothing to do with our physical realities. These things can change and change and change again. So at the end of the day, I just can't accept the idea of accepting because that to me seems like there is some sort of proven reality when there is no such thing. Giving up seems like a better descriptor.

If the different path is a different approach to reconciliation, that makes sense. If the different path takes us away from reconciliation, then that's running away, not accepting.

But we always have to remember that maintaining interpersonal relationships is a skill set. It doesn't surprise me at all that so many people are so bankrupt in this area because we devalue it so much. We don't teach that skill set. But just because I can't play the clarinet today, doesn't mean I can't tomorrow.






Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Apparently you do not accept that sometimes reconciliation is not possible.

I don't share your view.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2012, 04:18 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Hey, Chas.

It's always possible. It's just a question of whether or not we succeed; or care to succeed.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-11-2012, 04:27 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(23-11-2012 04:18 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

It's always possible. It's just a question of whether or not we succeed; or care to succeed.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
No, Matt, just no. If the other party is not interested, it isn't going to happen.

There are people like that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2012, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2012 05:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(22-11-2012 08:29 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

I just have an issue with the very notion that change can be impossible. How does one determine this? The only way I can imagine is either by not trying or by abandoning the process after hitting a few road blocks. But neither of those are proof it's impossible, it's just defeatism. I think that everyone can change. Have we learned nothing from the Grinch?

Hey, Erxomai.

Not fair. Chas is not a sissy.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

The fuck you say? Dude's like 5'4" and weighs like 120 lbs. That's like one of my legs. Not sure we share the same definition of sissy. Tongue

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23-11-2012, 06:16 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
Ghost,
While I appreciate your charitable nature I have to disagree. Forgiveness/reconciliation is not always possible.

I have spoken to my mother only twice in the last 7 years. I don't bad mouth her, I asked to leave me alone. I think the four plus decades that I endured her mental and physical abuse were plenty. She still rants about me to anyone who will listen, eventually word gets back to me.

She WILL NOT change...you know why? She doesn't think she has ever done anything that needs to be changed.

I could list all the things she has done but I don't have enough time left on this earth.

She is what she is, so be it and let her live long and treat others like crap, I did my time, as did my kids.

What would be stupid on my part is to keep on putting myself in her line of fire. I did that, for years. Nothing changed...actually that's not true. The more she got away way (the more abuse I took from her) the more she heaped on. She is abusive, horribly so. If there were anyone else in my life such as a neighbor or coworker who treated me in a like manner I would remove myself from them.

It's all butterflies and flowers to say that you SHOULD forgive everyone, no matter what. That you CAN reconcile with anyone, not matter what. But it isn't realistic. I tried, I even went to counseling...I fought back, I took it and turned the other cheek...I allowed her to treat my kids badly until enough was enough.

Now she just continues to treat my sister like crap and my sister-in-law even worse. So they avoid her as much as they can.

When you can escape from abuse, why would you not? I did my time as a masochist.

Turning the other cheek is a great concept, but I was being beat to death.

I respect you and your stance on this...but it will never be mine in this case.

Angie

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude.
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23-11-2012, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2012 07:46 PM by Chas.)
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(23-11-2012 05:23 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-11-2012 08:29 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

I just have an issue with the very notion that change can be impossible. How does one determine this? The only way I can imagine is either by not trying or by abandoning the process after hitting a few road blocks. But neither of those are proof it's impossible, it's just defeatism. I think that everyone can change. Have we learned nothing from the Grinch?

Hey, Erxomai.

Not fair. Chas is not a sissy.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

The fuck you say? Dude's like 5'4" and weighs like 120 lbs. That's like one of my legs. Not sure we share the same definition of sissy. Tongue

This dude's 5'4" and weighs 150 - not a lot of fat. Low center of gravity, good leverage. You'd be on your girly ass before you could say 'sumo'. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2012, 11:50 PM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
(23-11-2012 06:16 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Ghost,
While I appreciate your charitable nature ...
Angie

Huh? Blink

8 likes in over two years? Hardly charitable.

But it's OK. All is forgiven.

Angel

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24-11-2012, 08:34 AM
RE: Must We Always Forgive?
It is very possible to forgive someone for their past behavior without putting yourself back in the firing line again, To know that someone is abusive means that they have a problem, forgiving them for the past in no way means you should allow them to continue down the same route and abuse again.

Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation it is simply a way of letting go of that old hurt and anger you have inside you. You can forgive someone without the reconciliation of any relationship with them especially if they are abusive.

Letting go of the anger you feel towards another because of things that happened in the past doesn't suddenly turn you into an idiot that can't make an informed choice about the likely future behavior of that person.

Should we give people the benefit of doubt that they have changed and restart a relationship with them is a whole different topic than simple forgiveness.
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