My Argument For God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-01-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:18 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 02:03 PM)pablo Wrote:  Consciousness is a non-physical entity.
It is produced a by a physical brain, when the brain dies the consciousness ends.
Show me consciousness independent of a physical brain.

You are still assuming that the brain creates consciousness, there is no proof whatsoever that this is true and in my original post i explained why. Other states of consciousness such as sleep anesthesia etc. are just perceptions.

If you are an artifact of the physical universe, then you are an artifact of a thing that is finite and does not truly exist (zero), and you therefore do not exist (an artifact of zero).

You and the physical universe cannot be co-artifacts of each other. One is finite, the other is not. This mathematical condition is necessary in order for either one to exist, given the fact that one is known to be bound on both sides and therefore finite. Also, keep in mind that the boundaries of 'you' are completely unknown and not even a solid speculation has been presented to date to explain 'you' as any phenomenon suitable within the common frameworks of science, philosophy, or religion, but remains the most elusive of all things to define.

You cannot 'fit' an infinite (eternal) thing (you) inside of a finite system-this universe. You are not here. You are merely observing phenomenon in a finite domain, not actually confined to that finite domain. This is not ideological but based on the simple mathematical axioms regarding limits at infinity. These formal axioms state unambiguously that this is the case.

You seem to be ignorant of my ignorance.
If consciousness is not produced by a physical brain where does it come from? Explain it to me without the QP, it should be easy enough for you.
Since consciousness has no physical form, how is it observed and measured?
If you can somehow observe independent consciousness, how can you be sure it is not coming from your own brain?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:26 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 01:57 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Im using physics not to prove god, but to prove consciousness #1 is the thing that really exists…#2 is infinite and eternal. If it is infinite then so are you

Even if you could prove what you claim, it would not follow that it makes individuals exist infinitely. Just like my body is a temporary arrangement of matter (even if that matter did turn out to REQUIRE consciousness in any way), the part of this universal consciousness that is "me" could be a temporary pattern within the larger whole.

Quote:My solution to the problem is that time and space both do and do not exist; ...

So what I am proposing is that these NDErs have caught a glimpse outside of the box and that their consciousness exists in the domain being described.

...I regard the physical cosmos as an artifact of you and I.

What I hear reading most of your screed is "there's stuff we can't explain so here's a conjecture to explain it". Some of it is interesting but I don't find it compelling. We don't yet have a solid enough grasp of the rules at the quantum level to make the leaps you are making.

Quote:...consciousness is fundamental to the universe and I would even say it ‘paints it into being’. This explanation is consistent with every religion of man. You know it inherently within yourself. You are not an artifact of this physical cosmos. You have an eternal nature that demands an explanation; why are you here, what are you, what ‘here’ is?

Please speak for yourself. I do not have any inherent knowledge of an eternal nature. It makes much more sense to me that "I" am nothing more than a particular arrangement of matter and energy that will not last long before it is dissolved.

The interesting thing to me is that this barely gets you to a deistic god, certainly not a theistic one. Why would consciousness be splintered like it is if it is the substrate for everything else?

All very good questions. I am simply presenting my ideas because mainstream science has nothing to say on the matter other than ideological arguments.

Also I'm saying your infinite (eternal) nature is a property, like any property in physics, not at all dependent upon your 'beliefs'.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 12:19 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Because I have a somewhat extensive background in physics...

Please enlighten us. What is your extensive background in physics?
Doc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like docskeptic's post
14-01-2015, 02:37 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:16 PM)Ace Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 01:37 PM)pablo Wrote:  You're right, I am ignorant of quantum physics, as many people are, that's why you use it to argue such a simple question. To decieve.
When you can't prove existence, you try to redefine it to fit your conclusions.
It's sneaky, and dishonest and you know it.
We are not here to refute you, you have the burden of proof and have failed.

just tell him to give us the damn peer reviewed papers that have been accepted by at least 90% of scientists who are involved in the scientific field the paper is based on, if he can't produce the papers then he's just wasting everyone's time

I was getting to this, I just felt like arguing today. Big Grin: Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: My Argument For God
*Long reply coming*
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Peebothuhul's post
14-01-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:33 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 02:18 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  You are still assuming that the brain creates consciousness, there is no proof whatsoever that this is true and in my original post i explained why. Other states of consciousness such as sleep anesthesia etc. are just perceptions.

If you are an artifact of the physical universe, then you are an artifact of a thing that is finite and does not truly exist (zero), and you therefore do not exist (an artifact of zero).

You and the physical universe cannot be co-artifacts of each other. One is finite, the other is not. This mathematical condition is necessary in order for either one to exist, given the fact that one is known to be bound on both sides and therefore finite. Also, keep in mind that the boundaries of 'you' are completely unknown and not even a solid speculation has been presented to date to explain 'you' as any phenomenon suitable within the common frameworks of science, philosophy, or religion, but remains the most elusive of all things to define.

You cannot 'fit' an infinite (eternal) thing (you) inside of a finite system-this universe. You are not here. You are merely observing phenomenon in a finite domain, not actually confined to that finite domain. This is not ideological but based on the simple mathematical axioms regarding limits at infinity. These formal axioms state unambiguously that this is the case.

You seem to be ignorant of my ignorance.
If consciousness is not produced by a physical brain where does it come from? Explain it to me without the QP, it should be easy enough for you.
Since consciousness has no physical form, how is it observed and measured?
If you can somehow observe independent consciousness, how can you be sure it is not coming from your own brain?

If you're asking me if there is a way we can measure consciousness via an instrument then my answer is no…there is not at this time.
OK well if you want me to drop the QP which provides the backbone to my argument then I will, but then it is only ideological, but if that is easier for you to understand then ok.

Soo, what i am saying is that what we currently experience is a small fraction of the focus of the awareness of our true selves, our perception;we exist not inside the confines of this universe, not in some Heaven in the future, such as sometime after physical death, but right now.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:39 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  *Long reply coming*

I think the 'dumb atheists' are getting on his nerves.
That and every scientist that doesn't agree with him is wrong.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:50 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:18 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 02:03 PM)pablo Wrote:  Consciousness is a non-physical entity.
It is produced a by a physical brain, when the brain dies the consciousness ends.
Show me consciousness independent of a physical brain.

You are still assuming that the brain creates consciousness, there is no proof whatsoever that this is true and in my original post i explained why. Other states of consciousness such as sleep anesthesia etc. are just perceptions.

If you are an artifact of the physical universe, then you are an artifact of a thing that is finite and does not truly exist (zero), and you therefore do not exist (an artifact of zero).

You and the physical universe cannot be co-artifacts of each other. One is finite, the other is not. This mathematical condition is necessary in order for either one to exist, given the fact that one is known to be bound on both sides and therefore finite. Also, keep in mind that the boundaries of 'you' are completely unknown and not even a solid speculation has been presented to date to explain 'you' as any phenomenon suitable within the common frameworks of science, philosophy, or religion, but remains the most elusive of all things to define.

You cannot 'fit' an infinite (eternal) thing (you) inside of a finite system-this universe. You are not here. You are merely observing phenomenon in a finite domain, not actually confined to that finite domain. This is not ideological but based on the simple mathematical axioms regarding limits at infinity. These formal axioms state unambiguously that this is the case.

the brain is the only source of consciousness, and you have provided nothing to support the claim that minds exist independent of physical matter

here's a video on axioms


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:35 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 12:19 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  Because I have a somewhat extensive background in physics...

Please enlighten us. What is your extensive background in physics?
Doc

I have been working as a physicist and pharmaceutical research chemist for about a decade. I have worked for organizations such as SmithKline Beecham, Merck Research Labs and Johnson&Johnson R&D
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: My Argument For God
(14-01-2015 02:51 PM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  ...
I have worked for organizations such as SmithKline Beecham, Merck Research Labs and Johnson&Johnson

There's a coincidence... so have I. Unilever, too.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: