My First Debate with a Theist
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03-02-2017, 06:41 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2017 07:12 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(29-01-2017 05:01 PM)minorwork Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 03:38 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Can you explain what you mean by "science is made for stupid people who are ashamed of their stupidity. "?
Properly said the phrase runs:
Religion is designed for stupid people. Science is designed for stupid people who are embarrassed by their stupidity, who want to do something about it.


Given that religion functions to give its followers comfort and self-assurance in their innate superiority, but science (when properly understood can only make one uncomfortable and doubtful about knowing anything for certain then there is nothing wrong inherently with certainty or doubt but that an individual perverts them to their own benefits.
Quote:Also what is wrong with doubting?
Doubting is a very useful tool for staying alive. Please don't get this confused with absolute skepticism which results in inaction.
I'll try to avoid that dead end for sure. My life has been devoted to acting to solve problems or preventing the problems arising in the first place when I can. I embrace doubting, but am constantly, as necessity demands distinguishing when doubting is required over the advantages of confidence when knowledge is had or if it is NOT had in which case I try to employ Bayes and consider the odds and if they make sense in the situational necessity of the moment.
I am presently in the midst of having to be a counsel on family matters of which I have little enthusiasm to do so. A religious family, father minister *sigh* offering to care for young boys so my step-daughter can get a job. Geez, I don't want this.
Quote:Are you sure you aren't a supporter of blind faith?
I am IGNOSTIC, not agnostic. I don't know how to answer as I'm not psychic and don't trust my inference of your terms references yet.
Quote:Correct me if I am wrong but if you are opposed to logic based decisions & more drawn to faith-based decisions then is this not an example of blind faith?
Is Bayes a faith-based algorithm or logic based on YOUR criteria of faith and logics?
Quote:Or did I miss something?[quote]
Missed something, seems to me. More likely I failed to get across something for which I apologize. But I admit to being challenging to get to know your thought processes and word term references.

Science, IMO, is the belief in the ignorance of experts which forms the mainstay of the attitude of scientists until their self-esteem, their comfort, and self-assurance in their innate superiority depends on a certainty which they claim from science as their skyhook to innate superiority. THEN they have made science into scientism. Massimo Pigliucci wrote a good deal about scientism. \

I have over my desk Carvaggio's The Incredulity of St. Thomas to remind me of the advantages of doubt. My career in the coal mine saw problem resolutions advance or detract most depending on the degree of doubt that I gave the reports of those explaining the problem rather than my assuming NOTHING and exploring myself, but when a boss or mine manager explains, I listened and tended at times to forget my mantra of doubting. Still, if I know a miner operator has slipped some dirt into the stop button to keep the machine from starting, then I can give him his half hour nap. I won't 'kill' myself in the problem resolution. I'll get a paid lunch and STILL make everybody happy for the less time taken by NOT doubting ALL witnesses but listening to the operator confess to sabotage at risk of his pain by my beating the shit out of him if I found it was sabotage and he hadn't told me. Go along, get along, and get paid a lunch and fix the problem in less time than with science. All is right with the world.

Seemed logical to me at the time, but others thought I worked on faith and I didn't dissuade them. In a coal crew for a study of roof bolter and the unit repairman said a buggy was down behind the miner stopping production. The crew saw me take a tape measure out, measure down and sideways on a controller case and give the center X a couple of sharp hits with a bit hammer and walked back to the shop bench. Of course, I laid the sign of the cross on it afore I left. I was back reading cock books and up come the repairman and boss amazed. Such are the things of legend which now I don't allow any more. Faith is what others had in me, but doubt is what I had about my abilities. If told I was the best they had, them needing me to stay over, I'd respond, "If I'm the best you have, then you guys are in a heap of trouble."

No, there is no faith, there is some luck if a guess works out to be the problem solution with the hammer hits, but it is an educated guess, and purposeful as a contactor under the cover at that location sticks sometimes and stops the machine dead.

I don't place the ultimate bet, a blow job, on logical conclusions anymore either. Funny stories about such insistence on knowing logic and knowledge misapplied at the mine, but FAITH there was measured in the value of the bet.
Faith is the willingness to act/wager on belief without proof.
6. Bayes & just about everything that makes sense is logic based. It's when I'm asked to throw away logic & just believe that I call it blind faith.
7. You really need not go into so many unnecessary details about your work to get your point across. If you want recognition as a coal mine engineer these aren't the forums.
8. Give me at least one example where faith trumps logic.
9. Stop interchanging the words logic & science please. Your points are inconsistent & incoherent because you keep switching between arguments about logic & science.
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04-02-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
8. Give me at least one example where faith trumps logic.

What prompts you to ask? Does the definition of faith elude you? If so, you can use mine.
Faith. The willingness to act on belief without proof. Example. I bet a nickle the Patriots will win the SuperBowl. I have placed something valuable on the outcome of a game I have no way of knowing the outcome.

You have a fav definition of faith I can try out?

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04-02-2017, 06:25 PM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(04-02-2017 06:07 PM)minorwork Wrote:  8. Give me at least one example where faith trumps logic.

What prompts you to ask? Does the definition of faith elude you? If so, you can use mine.
Faith. The willingness to act on belief without proof. Example. I bet a nickle the Patriots will win the SuperBowl. I have placed something valuable on the outcome of a game I have no way of knowing the outcome.

You have a fav definition of faith I can try out?
I have no objections to your definition.
I'm just asking how is it better than logic. An example of how it is better would be great.
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05-02-2017, 12:00 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(04-02-2017 06:25 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:07 PM)minorwork Wrote:  8. Give me at least one example where faith trumps logic.

What prompts you to ask? Does the definition of faith elude you? If so, you can use mine.
Faith. The willingness to act on belief without proof. Example. I bet a nickle the Patriots will win the SuperBowl. I have placed something valuable on the outcome of a game I have no way of knowing the outcome.

You have a fav definition of faith I can try out?
I have no objections to your definition.
I'm just asking how is it better than logic. An example of how it is better would be great.
I said faith was better than logic? Hahahahahaha.

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06-02-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(04-02-2017 06:07 PM)minorwork Wrote:  8. Give me at least one example where faith trumps logic.

What prompts you to ask? Does the definition of faith elude you? If so, you can use mine.
Faith. The willingness to act on belief without proof. Example. I bet a nickle the Patriots will win the SuperBowl. I have placed something valuable on the outcome of a game I have no way of knowing the outcome.

You have a fav definition of faith I can try out?
It is important to not conflate religious faith with the other popular usage of the word faith, where it is basically a synonym for trust (misplaced or otherwise; when evidence-based trust then it becomes almost the opposite of religious faith).

Religious faith is belief without a requirement of evidence -- based, rather, on assertions of authoritarian sources, either holy writ or clergy / theologians.

Your analogy does not take into account the consequentiality of the thing one affords faith to. You are defining the matter in your example as inconsequential by assigning a value of five cents to it. Also, that the Patriots will win the SuperBowl is not an extraordinary claim as the Patriots are demonstrably a real, as opposed to imaginary, football team which has won games in the past.

The objects of religious faith are generally both extraordinary / miraculous and highly consequential (one's very eternal destiny) so the bar to being credulous about them is infinitely higher. Yet the evidence is far weaker. Since invisible beings and realms are inherently formulated so as to be unfalsifiable, no one can make knowledge claims either for or against their existence, yet there is no way for the preponderance of evidence or logical argument to make the claims of religious faith likely to be true. And therefore, no one can supportably afford belief to those claims.
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06-02-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(06-02-2017 08:18 AM)mordant Wrote:  The objects of religious faith are generally both extraordinary / miraculous and highly consequential (one's very eternal destiny) so the bar to being credulous about them is infinitely higher. Yet the evidence is far weaker. Since invisible beings and realms are inherently formulated so as to be unfalsifiable, no one can make knowledge claims either for or against their existence, yet there is no way for the preponderance of evidence or logical argument to make the claims of religious faith likely to be true. And therefore, no one can supportably afford belief to those claims.
Extraordinary/miraculous consequencies of a dubious eternal destiny being infinitely higher is so out of touch with reality that I'd rather things be brought down to real reality which I thought I did with the wager.

So a nickel isn't consequential enough for you. Thus I have to relate the coal mine ultimate bet, the blow job. Such a bet was for real men with confidence (or stupidity) a plenty. Yes, I won and lost such a bet. No one wanted to pay off so a brokerage system was established, a counting coup type of victory in winning the wager. I had lost on a technicality but I did own up to my loss, and I won on an obvious piece of false knowledge held by an upper manager temporarily on the job for an hour between shifts. Klotz, the guy I lost to, said he had lost a BJ to Ivan "the Mad Russian" Booth, so I had hopes of bartering the BJ. I approached Ivan on the ramp when I got off shift (he was waiting to go underground), told him I understood Klotz owed him a blow job. He agreed that was so. So I told him I had lost one to Klotz and he blew up saying he wasn't going to take any blow job from me. Told Ivan to hold his horses that I had won a blow job from Neuhaus, at which point Ivan got a big grin on his face agreeing to the swap that indeed he WOULD take a blow job from Opie Neuhaus.

And such is how faith in our beliefs are handled in reality not the fantasy of revelatory references. References which I happen to believe held the best of science principles but couldn't be overtly shown else the priestcraft would be decimated.

Point being that the fantasies of eternal infinite damnations and ecstasies are put off until after death but the real wagers are paid off while alive. Faith is the willingness to act on belief without proof.

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08-02-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(06-02-2017 10:39 AM)minorwork Wrote:  Point being that the fantasies of eternal infinite damnations and ecstasies are put off until after death but the real wagers are paid off while alive. Faith is the willingness to act on belief without proof.
Well I have not the first idea WTF anything we are discussing has to do with blow jobs but I am grateful for your final summary paragraph sparing me those contemplations.

Religious faith (as I said, in contrast to wan hope or evidence-based trust) IS willingness to believe without proof. I am not clear on whether you see this as a virtue or a vice.

Obviously eternal perdition and paradise are fantasies and obviously they are concocted to influence and control people in the only life people actually have. This does not in any way change the fact that religious faith is an utterly failed epistemology that does not tend to lead one toward truth or understanding of any kind, and does not explain experienced reality or predict outcomes.

This whole sub-conversation was prompted as I recall by your lack of interest in explaining how faith is superior to logic / reason. I am interested in the answer to that question even though I did not originally ask it. Can you answer this question with something other than a rambling story about blow jobs? Please do regale me.
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08-02-2017, 06:59 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(08-02-2017 05:41 AM)mordant Wrote:  Can you answer this question with something other than a rambling story about blow jobs? Please do regale me.

Well there was that time he had to give an arse-licking... Rolleyes Christ. The quality of some of the posts here. Slap 'em in a book and label them as conference proceedings. That's what I say.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-02-2017, 02:37 AM
RE: My First Debate with a Theist
(08-02-2017 05:41 AM)mordant Wrote:  Religious faith (as I said, in contrast to wan hope or evidence-based trust) IS willingness to believe without proof. I am not clear on whether you see this as a virtue or a vice.
You have failed to complete in detail that faith is the willingness to ACT on belief without proof. You and others repeatedly leave out the acting part and keep only the belief. Without the acting part of the equation, the belief is not being subject to the test of truth which without the ACT of wagering on something of value, thus the BJ bet, renders faith a weak expression of belief that any can hold an idea of fantasy or threat.

Quote:Obviously eternal perdition and paradise are fantasies and obviously they are concocted to influence and control people in the only life people actually have. This does not in any way change the fact that religious faith is an utterly failed epistemology that does not tend to lead one toward truth or understanding of any kind, and does not explain experienced reality or predict outcomes.
True dat, IMO.

Quote:This whole sub-conversation was prompted as I recall by your lack of interest in explaining how faith is superior to logic / reason. I am interested in the answer to that question even though I did not originally ask it. Can you answer this question with something other than a rambling story about blow jobs? Please do regale me.
Your pronouns of "that" question have me beachcombing for the question and I've yet to find it's antecedent. Another tried to assign me positions about faith being superior to logic or some such argument with himself, but I'd rather not guess of the question of your interest.

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11-02-2017, 10:32 PM
Tongue RE: My First Debate with a Theist
Actually now I try a new tact, when someone asks me what religion I am, or if I believe in god I tell them. I believe religion is like underwear, personal and private, one size or style does not fit all, and some people go commando. Tongue
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