My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
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15-03-2012, 11:27 AM
My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
I will be posting this on FB tonight. Help me clean it up.

In previous notes, I have touched upon the importance of using a literal translation of the Bible instead of a dynamic version. Now, I would like to touch upon the importance of knowing the history and the original language of the Bible.

We are going to look at three different instances in the Bible that are “common knowledge” but are opposed to the history of the time. The truth of this knowledge changes our understanding, and it ranges from a meaningless minutia, to causing churches to split, to teaching verses completely wrong.

Let’s take a look at the first one.

1) Jesus was a carpenter.

We all know what Jesus’ profession was, right? He was a carpenter. The Greek word for Jesus’ profession (Mark 6:3) was “tekton”.
http://concordances.org/greek/5045.htm

A tekton was a craftsman that worked with his hands. The connotation of the word is, indeed, “carpenter”; however, a carpenter isn’t how we understand it during Jesus’ day. A carpenter was someone who was an artisan – a handyman – which means Jesus probably worked with stones and masonry more than he worked with wood.

The region in and around Galilee (where Jesus grew up) was hilly and rocky. The flora of Galilee was (is) grass, small shrubs, and very few trees. Working solely with wood was just not practical given the resources; moreover, houses of that time where not wooden. They were made of stone and clay.

So, does this knowledge affect anything? No… probably not. I’m showcasing it because it a catalyst for how history can reinvent a biblical point of view.

2) Baptism

Southern Baptists will be the main focus in this point.

Baptism and how it should be done has actually caused rifts in denominations as well as playing a part in creating new Christian denominations. Southern Baptists reject infant baptism and believe the only valid form of baptism is submersion. They are vehement in this doctrine and do not allow any leeway. I would like to analyze and questions these beliefs.

I believe it is ridiculous that churches could be divided on such irrelevant and unnecessary debates such as infant baptism and submersion. In regards to baptism, I would venture to say, the only real, legitimate grievance on the subject of baptism is baptismal regeneration. That is, baptism saves you or washes away original sin (during infant baptism).

The majority of Protestants reject baptismal regeneration and believe that baptism is an outward sign of the covenant relationship that a believer has with God. Baptists believe solely in a believer’s baptism, which is a public showing of the person’s acceptance of Christ.

Other Protestant denominations (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed, Methodist, etc) practice infant baptism. Are they wrong in this practice? Baptists say that baptism is displayed in the Bible after the acceptance of Christ; however, there are some instances of baptism that the Baptists ignore.

Household baptism is mentioned in Act as well as Corinthians. After the patriarch of the household accepts Christ, then entire household is baptized. What is the significance of this? Aforementioned, baptism is a public display of the covenant you are making with God. Baptizing does not grant salvation, so with that being said, what is so wrong with infant baptism and/or household baptism.

Its significance is that the patriarch is displaying his covenant with God to establish a Godly household and to raise his children in a Godly way. This is a public covenant that he is making with God. Infant baptism is simply a covenant with God that the parents will present themselves as Godly influences as well as the child will be raised in a Godly household.

Since Protestants accept that baptism is symbolic, it is silly to think that the symbolism is reserved just for the believer during conversion; especially when there is scripture that supports household baptism.

There is no real reason why the church should be divided on the issue of infant baptism.

This brings us to the second part of the baptism debate, and frankly, the most asinine. What is a legitimate form of baptism? Baptist believe only submersion is and will not sprinkle or pour. Again, if this is symbolic why is the focus on the “how” and not on the “why”?

Paul of Tarsus is without a doubt one of the most influential people in Christianity. Paul was baptized in a small Jewish home. Here are some pictures of what a typical home looked like.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3406.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3407.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3396.JPG

As you can tell, the house is very small, and there was no room to submerge a person completely. It is a safe assumption that Paul was probably baptized by pouring or sprinkling.

It’s befuddling to think that Christians could be so petty and legalistic to actually debate this especially when they believe that it is symbolic.

3) Revelation 3:16

Ahhh, the infamous “lukewarm” verse. This has been taught as a warning for “fence straddlers” and “backsliders”. It is taught that God either wants you to be hot or cold, and if you’re lukewarm, He’s going to spit you out.

Here is where history and understanding come in because it COMPLETELY changes the meaning of what John is saying.

The Church of Laodicea was situated near Hierapolis’ hot springs and Colossae’s pure water supply. The hot water was used for medicinal purposes and the cool, pure water was used for refreshment. Sometimes, the water supplies would mix and become lukewarm, thus losing its hot medicinal effect and its cool, refreshing effect which made the water useless.

So, “cold” is not negative. “Cold” is just as positive as “hot”.

This verse is taught in a way that God would rather us have nothing to do with Him instead of being somewhat for Him. This is completely inaccurate. The accurate interpretation is that “hot” and “cold” are both very useful; however, the “lukewarm” is useless.

The history related to this verse completely changes its point of view and the way it’s commonly taught.

The above examples are why it’s important to learn the history of the Bible as well as the original languages.

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15-03-2012, 12:03 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
Are you for or against church division (in general)?
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15-03-2012, 12:07 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

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15-03-2012, 12:14 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

Yet you are thinking about leaving your current church, and you question the belief of others?
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15-03-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

How about a Christian amoeba?
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15-03-2012, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2012 12:17 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 12:14 PM)Dust Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

Yet you are thinking about leaving your current church, and you question the belief of others?

I was thinking about leaving because of the numerous attacks on me.

I question traditional beliefs because the more I study the more I find that they don't hold up against scripture.

Also, I became an official member of the church last week. I wasn't a member there, I was just going... but now, I'm a member. I'm not going anywhere.
(15-03-2012 12:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

How about a Christian amoeba?

I....
...ummm...

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15-03-2012, 04:54 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
My take is that infant baptism may have been important when infant death was prevalent. Baptism in spirit, accepting the Christ, is far more important and should not occur without an understanding of exactly what is being accepted.

Of course, traditions become hide-bound in a dogmatic entity. KC, yer doing fine.

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16-03-2012, 11:29 PM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 11:27 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I will be posting this on FB tonight. Help me clean it up.

In previous notes, I have touched upon the importance of using a literal translation of the Bible instead of a dynamic version. Now, I would like to touch upon the importance of knowing the history and the original language of the Bible.

We are going to look at three different instances in the Bible that are “common knowledge” but are opposed to the history of the time. The truth of this knowledge changes our understanding, and it ranges from a meaningless minutia, to causing churches to split, to teaching verses completely wrong.

Let’s take a look at the first one.

1) Jesus was a carpenter.

We all know what Jesus’ profession was, right? He was a carpenter. The Greek word for Jesus’ profession (Mark 6:3) was “tekton”.
http://concordances.org/greek/5045.htm

A tekton was a craftsman that worked with his hands. The connotation of the word is, indeed, “carpenter”; however, a carpenter isn’t how we understand it during Jesus’ day. A carpenter was someone who was an artisan – a handyman – which means Jesus probably worked with stones and masonry more than he worked with wood.

The region in and around Galilee (where Jesus grew up) was hilly and rocky. The flora of Galilee was (is) grass, small shrubs, and very few trees. Working solely with wood was just not practical given the resources; moreover, houses of that time where not wooden. They were made of stone and clay.

So, does this knowledge affect anything? No… probably not. I’m showcasing it because it a catalyst for how history can reinvent a biblical point of view.

2) Baptism

Southern Baptists will be the main focus in this point.

Baptism and how it should be done has actually caused rifts in denominations as well as playing a part in creating new Christian denominations. Southern Baptists reject infant baptism and believe the only valid form of baptism is submersion. They are vehement in this doctrine and do not allow any leeway. I would like to analyze and questions these beliefs.

I believe it is ridiculous that churches could be divided on such irrelevant and unnecessary debates such as infant baptism and submersion. In regards to baptism, I would venture to say, the only real, legitimate grievance on the subject of baptism is baptismal regeneration. That is, baptism saves you or washes away original sin (during infant baptism).

The majority of Protestants reject baptismal regeneration and believe that baptism is an outward sign of the covenant relationship that a believer has with God. Baptists believe solely in a believer’s baptism, which is a public showing of the person’s acceptance of Christ.

Other Protestant denominations (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed, Methodist, etc) practice infant baptism. Are they wrong in this practice? Baptists say that baptism is displayed in the Bible after the acceptance of Christ; however, there are some instances of baptism that the Baptists ignore.

Household baptism is mentioned in Act as well as Corinthians. After the patriarch of the household accepts Christ, then entire household is baptized. What is the significance of this? Aforementioned, baptism is a public display of the covenant you are making with God. Baptizing does not grant salvation, so with that being said, what is so wrong with infant baptism and/or household baptism.

Its significance is that the patriarch is displaying his covenant with God to establish a Godly household and to raise his children in a Godly way. This is a public covenant that he is making with God. Infant baptism is simply a covenant with God that the parents will present themselves as Godly influences as well as the child will be raised in a Godly household.

Since Protestants accept that baptism is symbolic, it is silly to think that the symbolism is reserved just for the believer during conversion; especially when there is scripture that supports household baptism.

There is no real reason why the church should be divided on the issue of infant baptism.

This brings us to the second part of the baptism debate, and frankly, the most asinine. What is a legitimate form of baptism? Baptist believe only submersion is and will not sprinkle or pour. Again, if this is symbolic why is the focus on the “how” and not on the “why”?

Paul of Tarsus is without a doubt one of the most influential people in Christianity. Paul was baptized in a small Jewish home. Here are some pictures of what a typical home looked like.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3406.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3407.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0HP40WRtSog/TI...G_3396.JPG

As you can tell, the house is very small, and there was no room to submerge a person completely. It is a safe assumption that Paul was probably baptized by pouring or sprinkling.

It’s befuddling to think that Christians could be so petty and legalistic to actually debate this especially when they believe that it is symbolic.

3) Revelation 3:16

Ahhh, the infamous “lukewarm” verse. This has been taught as a warning for “fence straddlers” and “backsliders”. It is taught that God either wants you to be hot or cold, and if you’re lukewarm, He’s going to spit you out.

Here is where history and understanding come in because it COMPLETELY changes the meaning of what John is saying.

The Church of Laodicea was situated near Hierapolis’ hot springs and Colossae’s pure water supply. The hot water was used for medicinal purposes and the cool, pure water was used for refreshment. Sometimes, the water supplies would mix and become lukewarm, thus losing its hot medicinal effect and its cool, refreshing effect which made the water useless.

So, “cold” is not negative. “Cold” is just as positive as “hot”.

This verse is taught in a way that God would rather us have nothing to do with Him instead of being somewhat for Him. This is completely inaccurate. The accurate interpretation is that “hot” and “cold” are both very useful; however, the “lukewarm” is useless.

The history related to this verse completely changes its point of view and the way it’s commonly taught.

The above examples are why it’s important to learn the history of the Bible as well as the original languages.
Jesus Carpenter: I personally don't think it's too relevant. Bible could've said he was a herder. The main theme of Jesus still would've been 'he is the way the truth the life etc.'

Now if there was some archeological find claiming there was a man named Jesus and he was a shepherd (like an actual literal shepherd Big Grin) then that may be basis for possible bible contradictions.

As far as baptism: I was raised JW. And was taught that the actual baptism was a personal prayer between you and god (jehovah). I can't recall the scripture at hand they use for this but if you really care too much i would be happy to dig it up. Anyway, we still had a baptism event at assemblies where we were dipped in water which wasn't for god but to make it public that we have dedicated our lives to his will.

As far as a baptism washing away sins is silly. You seem like man of science so you know it's nothing than one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms connected. (H20, water).

Lukewarm: Interesting way to look at it.

Maybe Cold is the positive and the lukewarm is bad and the hot is like hot as in in your gonna burn in hell hotTongue sorry i couldn't help myself.

seriously tho, technically this is a decent point. Cold isn't necessarily a negative.



I can't help but ask, does one have to become a fuckn archeologist to know god? And a linguist who knows how to translate hebrew/aramic to his regional language? Why can't god just commune with us like he did in bible times. i.e. talk directly to us? sorry not trying to change the subject. I just see all the devotion your putting in to making the bible tangible, and it makes me as these questions.

Anyway, i hope my viewpoints were at least somewhat constructive or at least contributed to an answer you find satisfying.

Forget Jesus. Stars died so you could live.-Lawrence Krauss

For god loved the world so much he tortured his only begotten son, gave him a 3 day nap only to wake up in ultimate awesomeness and called it a sacrifice.
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19-03-2012, 03:09 AM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
(15-03-2012 12:16 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:14 PM)Dust Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

Yet you are thinking about leaving your current church, and you question the belief of others?

I was thinking about leaving because of the numerous attacks on me.

I question traditional beliefs because the more I study the more I find that they don't hold up against scripture.

Also, I became an official member of the church last week. I wasn't a member there, I was just going... but now, I'm a member. I'm not going anywhere.
(15-03-2012 12:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:07 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 12:03 PM)Dust Wrote:  Are you for or against church division (in general)?

I'm against it. We are one in Christ. One Christian should not be divided against another.

How about a Christian amoeba?

I....
...ummm...

Hi Kingschosen. Why do you hold scripture so dear? You seem reasonably intelligent. How can you not see the lies, the fallacies, the inconsistencies in it? Why do you believe this bullshit about "Christ?" He was not and is not a god. He is a mythical figure who symbolizes the unquestioning acceptance of what well-oiled institutions tell people to believe. He is a corporate logo employed to cajole people into having faith in a raft of beliefs, prejudices, and behaviors, instead of being open-minded as to the opinions of others and instead of thinking for themselves. You seem to be another protagonist of the tired old endlessly repeated "I'm tired of religion/churches, I just want to get back to scripture" argument. How can you not see that scripture was created by churchmen to control your behaviour, beliefs and your wallet? Wake up! Be a man! Put your brain into first gear!
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19-03-2012, 03:52 AM
RE: My Fourth Question to Christians: Is the History Important?
Provide one proof that Jesus existed. Until then we may as well be talking about Elizabeth from Pride and Prejudice.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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