My God belief rekindled(?)
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28-01-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 08:40 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  For me Atheism is about being intellectually honest with myself.
More exactly, it is a RESULT of being intellectually honest with yourself. I am not really an atheist so much as a person who does not afford beliefs to things that are not substantiated. Because I don't see the slightest substantiation for the claims of religious faith, I do not afford belief to their claims -- including their god claims -- which just happens to make ma an atheist.
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28-01-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 04:12 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  ... he got me [to] consider leaving the label 'atheist'. And here's why. I believe Sam Harris(who held a recent podcast talking to Peterson, by the way, the results are as Blink as expected) had it right earlier in his career when he encouraged the 'atheist' community to do the same. His point was if I remember correctly, but I might add my own on top of his, that this unifying aspect of using such labels that hold no meaning but for their ideological opposition to some other idea will only do us harm. It will engage us in the standard groupthink and bias found in any other ideologically driven or inspired group mentality, be it reactionary(like political and/or social atheism) or otherwise.
You may want to Google Alain de Botton and "Atheism 2.0". De Botton suggests that we have dispensed with the uninteresting question of god's existence and now need to really understand the itches that religion scratches (e.g., providing community, refuge, continuity, focus on / reminders of what's important via ritual) and see how we might meet those needs for ourselves, perhaps even reproduce some useful parts of that supportive structure for ourselves.

I do not really see this as an atheist enterprise so much as a humanist one; atheism is far too narrow a basis for such things. So while I think Alain's ideas are a little misdirected, they are not without merit. It is not useful to pretend that religious belief-systems are inexplicable and crazy, full stop. They certainly contain and foster a lot of crazy, particularly at the extremes. But there is a reason that the interlocking set of memes that is theism has been so durable, and it's not 100% because of "god of the gaps" and therefore its raison d'etre is not going to 100% be displaced by scientific understanding / education.

All that being said, I still do not see any good reason to afford belief to any deities, and therefore, I remain an atheist.

Even though I have that self-label for philosophical / discussion purposes, by the way, I don't deploy it in everyday real life. The topic hardly ever has even come up. I am a lot of things in between my ears that are nobody's business outside them, in most contexts.
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28-01-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
No doubt Peterson is wildly intelligent, well-spoken and a bulwark against the ever-encroaching SJW tide that's inundating university culture.

But...

The majority of what he speaks of relates to the usefulness of religious thought, rather than whether theism actually true. (It took me a couple of viewings to see this.)

While I respect the way he thinks and appreciate his intellect, he hasn't really told me anything new.
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28-01-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 01:20 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  The majority of what he speaks of relates to the usefulness of religious thought, rather than whether theism actually true. (It took me a couple of viewings to see this.)
Exactly. Aspects of religious thought have utility, but that says nothing about their veracity. There is utility in telling a little child that "everything will be alright" despite your knowledge that they have a death sentence medical diagnosis, for example. There is even utility in the old-fashioned practice of keeping such realities from grown adults, although that says zero about whether that makes it right to do so.

The best justification I have for religion is a variation of "any port in a storm", or in other words, let people keep their illusions provided they are comforting and relatively harmless to others. And that's a pretty weak justification, for multiple reasons. Not least of which is that it's not hard to see substantial harms, to individuals and to society, from the direct and indirect effects of sustaining the faux comfort.
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28-01-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
Religion doesn't provide any explanations.
They provide assertions and those assertions are not true.

When I jump into the air, a religious person can assert that a divine octopus pulls me back down to the ground.

This isn't an explanation. It's an assertion.
It also happens to be not true.

What is it that you think religion explains ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-01-2017, 05:35 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 08:18 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  There are no canonical representantations of facts. There are no 'facts' in a void. Facts can only be justified by their explanatory power. Religion excels in providing explanations, they are just different kinds than traditionally scientific ones.

No, religion provides no explanations - it just provides stories without factual basis.

To call those 'explanations' is to debase the word.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-01-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 06:37 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  I am not the best at establishing what my points are, obviously.

Sorry about that.

I merely wanted to comment on how atheists can be biased against religion. I think it's a by-product of the fact that we seek and easier identify with people such as ourselves, and less so with theists, for example. I think that comes naturally. But is what comes naturally necessarily right in all cases?

I'm not necessarily saying it's bad to be social insofar as you are an antitheist, in practice, if not in name, but I think that we tend to sometimes exclude alien viewpoints, not understand as much where people come from who are outside of our bubble, and this is not just a characteristic of us, it is found everywhere. But it takes awareness of the fact to correct for it.

I scanned the linked video, and was somewhat indifferent to its content. I'd also suggest you're possibly overthinking this whole scenario.

You describe yourself as an "antitheist"—which to me is the definition of someone who actively and aggressively opposes people of religious faith and their doctrine. I'm a lifelong atheist, and I regard so-called anti-theism as totally detached from the singular concept atheism, and also inflammatory, and unproductive—from any meaningful, explicatory debating point of view.

Atheism is simply a personal state of mind; nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to be putting too much emphasis on alleged "groupthink" with atheists, whereas in reality it's nothing of the sort. There's no doctrines, or dogma, or book of instructions, or a right or wrong way, or particular codes of ethics or morals. The state of being an atheist is no different or any more complicated than saying you don't like chocolate, or you're tired, or you're happy, or you're in love. Or more obviously you don't believe in leprechauns or unicorns.

You're positing a solution to a non-existent philosophical dilemma.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-01-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(29-01-2017 12:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 06:37 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  I am not the best at establishing what my points are, obviously.

Sorry about that.

I merely wanted to comment on how atheists can be biased against religion. I think it's a by-product of the fact that we seek and easier identify with people such as ourselves, and less so with theists, for example. I think that comes naturally. But is what comes naturally necessarily right in all cases?

I'm not necessarily saying it's bad to be social insofar as you are an antitheist, in practice, if not in name, but I think that we tend to sometimes exclude alien viewpoints, not understand as much where people come from who are outside of our bubble, and this is not just a characteristic of us, it is found everywhere. But it takes awareness of the fact to correct for it.

I scanned the linked video, and was somewhat indifferent to its content. I'd also suggest you're possibly overthinking this whole scenario.

You describe yourself as an "antitheist"—which to me is the definition of someone who actively and aggressively opposes people of religious faith and their doctrine. I'm a lifelong atheist, and I regard so-called anti-theism as totally detached from the singular concept atheism, and also inflammatory, and unproductive—from any meaningful, explicatory debating point of view.

Atheism is simply a personal state of mind; nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to be putting too much emphasis on alleged "groupthink" with atheists, whereas in reality it's nothing of the sort. There's no doctrines, or dogma, or book of instructions, or a right or wrong way, or particular codes of ethics or morals. The state of being an atheist is no different or any more complicated than saying you don't like chocolate, or you're tired, or you're happy, or you're in love. Or more obviously you don't believe in leprechauns or unicorns.

You're positing a solution to a non-existent philosophical dilemma.
I don't think he is Anti-Theist anymore though.
Look at the Thread title.
He has rekindled his faith in God. He used to be against Theism for whatever reason. I'm guessing he had some disturbing life event that had him question the existence of a loving God & finally came to the conclusion that such a God could not possibly exist.
It would seem he has returned to Theism after coming to terms with the reasoning behind his ordeal.
In this regard I don't think he was ever really an Atheist as much as he was a God Hater.
Or as I sometimes say "If God really does exist, I would hate him"
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30-01-2017, 07:56 AM
RE: My God belief rekindled(?)
(28-01-2017 04:12 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Boy, I never thought I'd reconsider calling myself an atheist after I became one.

I came across Jordan Peterson recently. I listened to him on the Joe Rogan Podcast. Here's the youtube link if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE

It's nice to know someone else here is a fan of Jordan Peterson, though surprisingly I didn't know he identified as a Christian, until you pointed it out, I also didn't know he did an interview with Harris, which I'm gonna have to look into later.

I am curious as to what part of the video where you in particular interested in?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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