My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
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25-03-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(24-03-2012 08:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  By the 3rd Century, (Origen of Alexandria), the present canon was set. This was about 1200 years before Trent.

In the famous "Easter Letter", (367), Athenasius listed EXACTLY the same books they use today.

Once again we are OFF THE POINT. You can't "corrupt" what was never "pristine".
As I've already pointed out at least once, our oldest extant versions of the New Testament contain and/or exclude books and many important passages that are not in the "canon" that has come down to us today. These passages/books' inclusion or exclusion were not discussed at Nicea.

Athenasius's Easter letter was sent to the churches he had power over, in Egypt. That was all. It had no effect on a "canon" in the rest of Christendom, as evidenced by the fact that the Abyssinian Church just 200 miles away completely ignored Athenasius and included 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the three books of Meqabyan as canonical holy scripture. Which they still do to this day.

So, to amend my original point, the supposed "canon" of the Christian Church was in fact NEVER settled. Not at Nicea, not in 367, not at the Council of Trent, nor even at Glenn Beck University. There is, and never has been, an "official" Bible for everybody in Christendom.
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25-03-2012, 08:06 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(25-03-2012 07:37 PM)Blood Wrote:  
(24-03-2012 08:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  By the 3rd Century, (Origen of Alexandria), the present canon was set. This was about 1200 years before Trent.

In the famous "Easter Letter", (367), Athenasius listed EXACTLY the same books they use today.

Once again we are OFF THE POINT. You can't "corrupt" what was never "pristine".
As I've already pointed out at least once, our oldest extant versions of the New Testament contain and/or exclude books and many important passages that are not in the "canon" that has come down to us today. These passages/books' inclusion or exclusion were not discussed at Nicea.

Athenasius's Easter letter was sent to the churches he had power over, in Egypt. That was all. It had no effect on a "canon" in the rest of Christendom, as evidenced by the fact that the Abyssinian Church just 200 miles away completely ignored Athenasius and included 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the three books of Meqabyan as canonical holy scripture. Which they still do to this day.

So, to amend my original point, the supposed "canon" of the Christian Church was in fact NEVER settled. Not at Nicea, not in 367, not at the Council of Trent, nor even at Glenn Beck University. There is, and never has been, an "official" Bible for everybody in Christendom.


I give, fine sir.
We're arguing over nothing. I basically agree. We BOTH agree that the formation of the lists that are considered canons for each community was a long and non-unanimous human process, which in many cases went on in isolation. The original question seemed to assume that there was/is "one" bible. We agree that is not now, nor ever was the case. Unsure

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01-04-2012, 12:52 AM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
Hey Kingschosen I have a Historical reference bible that covers the formation of the bible. If you wish I could sumarize some of the information for you.

P.S. it is a catholic bible, so I'm not sure how heretical you might find it

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01-04-2012, 12:27 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
Really isn't this whole question already null and void?

If there is a god and he has decided to give us a book of his direction then why on earth would he choose to use a human language rather then a universal language we can all understand (a miracle yes but not one that would violate free will) that needs to be translated by bias humans into hundreds of languages.

Then instead of ensuring the only works written in god's name were indeed from god humans have to decide out of dozens of gospels written which ones are legit and try to place them all in the correct order into a book which is amazingly kept from everyday people by the church until the printing press.

Never mind the fact that we also have 3000+ different denominations of Christianity who all claim to be speaking to the same god but cant' even agree on things like communion, church hierarchy or baptism never-mind abortion of homosexuality.

Never mind if the bible is corrupt. Your god has failed on basic communication on such an absolute level that I would say it's arguable proof that there is nothing to communicate with.

I understand many of you "speak" to god on a daily basis. I did it for 22 years. It's hard to accept but you may be asking the wrong question here.

The question that you need to honestly ask with an open mind if you really want to get anywhere is much more simple.

"How would I know what the voice of god sounds like?"

To me I realized something important. The voice of god for any individual who answers this question honestly always sounds a lot like what they would expect it to sound like.

No odd quirks or angelic laungage you are somehow able to understand. No sudden flashes of solutions to problems or sudden realizations of situations. No magically learning martial arts or anything of the like.

Nope sounds just like your talking to another human in most every regard.
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02-04-2012, 08:16 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(01-04-2012 12:27 PM)Godless Wrote:  If there is a god and he has decided to give us a book of his direction then why on earth would he choose to use a human language rather then a universal language we can all understand?

According to the God-bots, YHWH decided to communicate directly with human beings only between 1200BCE to 100 CE. After the Novum Testamentum Grecae was supposedly canonized, YHWH said, "OK, boys, I'm leavin' it all in your hands now, you have all the information you'll ever need." So this isn't a problem at all for the God-bots.
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03-04-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(01-04-2012 12:52 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  P.S. it is a catholic bible, so I'm not sure how heretical you might find it
Why heretical?
The early catholic church fathers chose the books and gospels of the bible. As far as I know, all other christian sects are using the same bible, with a couple of books removed/added (and different translations and adaptations) but it's essentially the same bible.

I might think KC means "corrupted" from the catholic bible... the only, the original bible!!

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03-04-2012, 11:32 AM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(03-04-2012 11:14 AM)KVron Wrote:  
(01-04-2012 12:52 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  P.S. it is a catholic bible, so I'm not sure how heretical you might find it
Why heretical?
The early catholic church fathers chose the books and gospels of the bible. As far as I know, all other christian sects are using the same bible, with a couple of books removed/added (and different translations and adaptations) but it's essentially the same bible.

I might think KC means "corrupted" from the catholic bible... the only, the original bible!!
Well, I actually think parts of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses are inspired; however, parts of it are corrupted - which is why they weren't canonized.

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05-04-2012, 06:56 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
To say that translations are not inspired is to say that the Septuagint as the original Greek manuscripts both earliest and all later editions are in error and uninspired.

compare Hebrews 12:6 to Proverbs 3:12, the Hebrew translated into the Greek Septuagint which is then quoted by the author of Hebrews word for word. If the Septuagint is not considered to be inspired as a translation then one must also conclude that all of the quotes including Jesus' own quotes of the Septuagint are in error.

Was the Greek Septuagint inspired? Could other translations, even though the wording differs in places, still be inspired? Do the scriptures reveal how to tell what is and what is not the inspired word of God?

Thanks for the thoughts,

Gary
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05-04-2012, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 08:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(05-04-2012 06:56 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  To say that translations are not inspired is to say that the Septuagint as the original Greek manuscripts both earliest and all later editions are in error and uninspired.

compare Hebrews 12:6 to Proverbs 3:12, the Hebrew translated into the Greek Septuagint which is then quoted by the author of Hebrews word for word. If the Septuagint is not considered to be inspired as a translation then one must also conclude that all of the quotes including Jesus' own quotes of the Septuagint are in error.

Was the Greek Septuagint inspired? Could other translations, even though the wording differs in places, still be inspired? Do the scriptures reveal how to tell what is and what is not the inspired word of God?

Thanks for the thoughts,

Gary

No it wasn't. That's ridiculous. Ya have to go back a LOT further than that. I hate to be boring, in re-posting this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg ,
but NO ONE person wrote anything, and THERE WAS NO ONE version of anything. They were ALL written, re-written, and re-edited.
Where does it become "magical" ? The Y source, the E source, the P source, the K source, the D source, were all "assembled". The question is :
"were the assemblers inspired", (were the people who passed on the oral traditions inspired?)

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05-04-2012, 08:00 PM
RE: My Third Question to Christians: Is Our Bible Corrupted?
(05-04-2012 07:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 06:56 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  To say that translations are not inspired is to say that the Septuagint as the original Greek manuscripts both earliest and all later editions are in error and uninspired.

compare Hebrews 12:6 to Proverbs 3:12, the Hebrew translated into the Greek Septuagint which is then quoted by the author of Hebrews word for word. If the Septuagint is not considered to be inspired as a translation then one must also conclude that all of the quotes including Jesus' own quotes of the Septuagint are in error.

Was the Greek Septuagint inspired? Could other translations, even though the wording differs in places, still be inspired? Do the scriptures reveal how to tell what is and what is not the inspired word of God?

Thanks for the thoughts,

Gary

No it wasn't. That's ridiculous. Ya have to go back a LOT further than that. I hate to be boring, in re-posting this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg ,
but NO ONE person wrote anything, and THERE WAS NO ONE version of anthing. They were ALL written, re-written, and re-edited.
Where does it become "magical" ? The Y source, the E source, the P source, the K source, the D source, were all "assembled". The question is :
"were the assemblers inspired" ?

Your response isn't making sense to me. I don't understand your objection. Can you clarify?

Gary
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