My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
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26-02-2012, 11:48 AM
My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
Recently I have converted to vegetarianism. I always thought it was wrong to eat animals, but I never acted. I have done a lot of thinking as to what I would not eat, and now it has come down to dairy and eggs. At the moment I am still eating dairy products and eggs. I will reveal my rational behind it.

I am acting off well being.

Eating meat causes the death of animals.
The death of animals can be harmful and can retract happiness from the animal.
Therefore eating meat is morally wrong.

As for milk and eggs:

Obtaining milk and eggs from animals doesn't have to harm them. (If done morally)
Animals not being harmed does not retract happiness.
Therefore eating eggs and dairy is not morally wrong.


Although companies today do harm their chickens and cows when obtaining eggs and milk, that doesn't mean they have to. So just as it isn't morally wrong to buy from companies like apple because their workers overseas are treated poorly. People purchasing said products doesn't inevitably bring harm; companies are the ones directly harming employees.

I need... good arguments if and why my rational is inconsistent or incorrect. Thanks.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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26-02-2012, 11:56 AM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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26-02-2012, 12:27 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
We have been vegetarians for over 30 years.

Our principle is very simple: we don't eat anything that visibly objects to being eaten.

The word "visibly" is very important to counter the lame argument: "how do you know that a carrot does not object"?

The test is very simple: you stick a pin into your potential meal and if it tries to get away, you don't eat it.

The other silly argument we have had to contend with is "but eating meat is the natural way!"

To which we reply: "so is shitting on sidewalk -- just ask any dog".

So is dying of appendicitis.

Some of us have evolved! Big Grin
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26-02-2012, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2012 02:09 PM by Leela.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I used to be a vegeterian and even vegan for many years.

Back then I had three main reasons:
1. I didn't want to eat or comsume a corpse or parts of it. And yes I say it that hard because that is what I thought back then.
2. I didn't like the taste so much.
3. Meat is expensive and you don't need to eat it to stay alive and healthy, so I left it.

Of course there used to be more reasons, deeper reasons, even religios reasons.

When I went very poor I moved to someone who took me in. As I didn't want to make problems I ate the meat that was offered to me. I suffered through the first two weeks because my system wasn't used to meat. Stomach, diarriah, feeling weird and itchy, etc....

By now I eat it. Not because I want to but because I am not cooking only for me anymore, and my hubby likes meat so much. So one of us had to step back from their normal diet. (I am not going to cook two meals for dinner o.O)


Now about the first post with the hapiness... Sorry dude, but that does not sound like a proper argument to stop eating meat. If you will miss it for some reason, don't stop. If you have a real reason, stop.
You take happiness away from tons of people on a dayly basis without realizing it but when it comes to eating a saussage it becomes a problem?
What about the beggar that you didn't give a dollar?
What about the right of way that you took from someone while driving to work?
What about the underpaid workers that made your jeans in Asia?
What about the last milk that you took in the supermarket while someone else wanted it?
What about the neighbour you didn't greet on the street?

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26-02-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
If I may, being new and all...
Why stick to vegetarian ? If you are committed to animal welfare, go the full hog and become vegan.

Dairy and egg production ,have the by-product of veal and capon production respectively. Their lives are not the worst in meat production but are not the best either.

So taking diary (cow) and eggs is counter-productive to welfare considerations. IMO.

As full disclosure, I eat meat... however if I do not kill it, prepare it and cook it myself I will not eat it. (I certainly don't buy it)

Don't be wishy-washy go vegan...
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26-02-2012, 02:30 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2012 02:51 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 11:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.


Yea, faces could have something to do with it.

Or the fact they have a nervous system... Dodgy


Quote:Now about the first post with the hapiness... Sorry dude, but that does not sound like a proper argument to stop eating meat. If you will miss it for some reason, don't stop. If you have a real reason, stop.
You take happiness away from tons of people on a dayly basis without realizing it but when it comes to eating a saussage it becomes a problem?
What about the beggar that you didn't give a dollar?
What about the right of way that you took from someone while driving to work?
What about the underpaid workers that made your jeans in Asia?
What about the last milk that you took in the supermarket while someone else wanted it?
What about the neighbour you didn't greet on the street?

Really?

The beggar: I actually do give them what change I have. I believe in a utopia.
The driver: I never do that on purpose and I do go out of my way to prevent it.
The worker: I addressed this in my predicted responses in the OP... Companies doing, not mine.
Milk: ...Really?
Neighbor: Who does that?

All these scenarios, despite being fallacious are not deliberately apart of my moral responsibility. Also, even if they were somehow rational, do not amount to the death of another earthling.

(26-02-2012 01:38 PM)Sol Wrote:  Dairy and egg production ,have the by-product of veal and capon production respectively. Their lives are not the worst in meat production but are not the best either.

So taking diary (cow) and eggs is counter-productive to welfare considerations. IMO.

As full disclosure, I eat meat... however if I do not kill it, prepare it and cook it myself I will not eat it. (I certainly don't buy it)

Don't be wishy-washy go vegan...

I understand that dairy/egg profits support the actions that I am against for eating meat, but I am concerned about my own moral action. The companies are at fault for the inhuman treatment. I do not directly support this action. Eggs and milk can be eaten without the retraction of happiness from the chicken or cow, along with their life. I am not a martyr.

Simply put, there is no way to eat meat unless the animal is dead and well being is diminished.
With my logic, that I wish someone would address like I previously asked...Dodgy is there direct immoral behavior linked to eating eggs and dairy. The process of obtaining these two goods do NOT have to cause harm and retract well being; eating meat DOES.



And people, EGGS! DAIRY! EGGS! DAIRY! Stay on subject. We are not arguing vegetarianism. On the continuum of happiness and well-being vegetarianism is morally right. Move on. This topic is about eating eggs and dairy and it's implications.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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26-02-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 02:30 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 11:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.


Yea, faces could have something to do with it. Dodgy

Or the fact they have nervous systems...

I'm no botanist, but don't plants have some sort of nervous system and avoidance to harmful stimuli? If you poke a plant with a pin enough times, it will show signs of damage.

But really, my entire argument for why vegetarianism is demonic is because you're unwilling to accept the greatness of Bacon.

What do you have against Bacon? Bacon tastes good!





{this is from my favorite burger restaurant in Seattle. Smile}
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26-02-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
This has been a discussion I've had many times, but I'd still like to weigh in on at least one area.

Eggs and milk are not the same as meat, with regard to "kindness", since the accessability to well treated eggs and milk (well, the animals that give them) is much greater. How often do you drive down a country road and see a hand painted sign that says something like, "fresh eggs" with an arrow pointing down the driveway? I for one, have that very sign. As soon as you turn down the drive, you'll see that you must slow down since my chickens will come running to the car to greet you (and to eat the squashed bugs off your front bumper!). Their eggs are infertile (no need for a roo) and they are about as happy as a chicken can be. In fact if you sit down on my front lawn, you'll likely end up with a chicken sitting in your lap waiting for a treat or just to have it's neck massaged.

This spring our goat will arrive. We've already met, and she is friendly and affectionate. Her home will be as well appointed as any housepet, and she will enjoy plenty of space and companionship. She will, in turn, provide my family with healthy milk, cheese, yogurt, and possibly butter if I can ever master making goat butter (not an easy task compared to cows milk)

I also raise all the meat my family eats. Again, the life our animals live is better than any I've seen. There are others like me around, and if your desire is solely to encourage "happiness", then all you need do is find one of us. An easy task? Perhaps not. But if you are not willing to follow a more challenging path, then aren't you being a little hypocritical? Find the farmer who treats his cows well, both in life and death, and it will make it that much easier for the neighbor down the street who feels the same way you do.

I won't do the health argument. It's been done to death, and your own research will point you in the direction that is best for you.

Now I'm off to make a chicken sandwich for lunch. The chicken was raised in my backyard. The mayo was made with my own eggs. And the bread from wheat I grew in my fields.

Just visiting.

-SR
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26-02-2012, 02:57 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2012 03:01 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 02:47 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Eggs and milk are not the same as meat, with regard to "kindness", since the accessability to well treated eggs and milk (well, the animals that give them) is much greater. How often do you drive down a country road and see a hand painted sign that says something like, "fresh eggs" with an arrow pointing down the driveway? I for one, have that very sign. As soon as you turn down the drive, you'll see that you must slow down since my chickens will come running to the car to greet you (and to eat the squashed bugs off your front bumper!). Their eggs are infertile (no need for a roo) and they are about as happy as a chicken can be. In fact if you sit down on my front lawn, you'll likely end up with a chicken sitting in your lap waiting for a treat or just to have it's neck massaged.

This is the core of my argument when it comes to eggs and milk. The milk and eggs can be obtained a more than humane way, as you have established. Obviously in the same light your animals might be treated and killed for meat in a more humane and kind way than modern slaughter houses. My main point is, despite the differences between you and the slaughters houses, the animal still loses it's life. The continuum is much broader and better in both instances considering your farm, but the eggs and milk continuum surpasses that of the way you treat your meat "suppliers" compared to the other guys.

(26-02-2012 02:44 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  If you poke a plant with a pin enough times, it will show signs of damage.

Yes, because you poked holes in it. Did you make that assertion out of stupidity or ignorance?

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26-02-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 02:30 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  And people, EGGS! DAIRY! EGGS! DAIRY! Stay on subject. We are not arguing vegetarianism. On the continuum of happiness and well-being vegetarianism is morally right. Move on. This topic is about eating eggs and dairy and it's implications.

At the risk of repetition,
Vegetarianism morally right ???? Don't think so...
Dairy and eggs, wrong if your concern is for animal welfare...
Therefore vegetarianism is inconsistent with animal welfare.

Your either all in or all out with commitment, don't pussyfoot about.
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