My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
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26-02-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 03:03 PM)Sol Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 02:30 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  And people, EGGS! DAIRY! EGGS! DAIRY! Stay on subject. We are not arguing vegetarianism. On the continuum of happiness and well-being vegetarianism is morally right. Move on. This topic is about eating eggs and dairy and it's implications.

At the risk of repetition,
Vegetarianism morally right ???? Don't think so...
Dairy and eggs, wrong if your concern is for animal welfare...
Therefore vegetarianism is inconsistent with animal welfare.
Your either all in or all out with commitment, don't pussyfoot about.

How so?
How so?
And how so?

I can throw premises and conclusions around like I'm throwing my shit too. Explain your case.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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26-02-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 03:06 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 03:03 PM)Sol Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 02:30 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  And people, EGGS! DAIRY! EGGS! DAIRY! Stay on subject. We are not arguing vegetarianism. On the continuum of happiness and well-being vegetarianism is morally right. Move on. This topic is about eating eggs and dairy and it's implications.

At the risk of repetition,
Vegetarianism morally right ???? Don't think so...
Dairy and eggs, wrong if your concern is for animal welfare...
Therefore vegetarianism is inconsistent with animal welfare.
Your either all in or all out with commitment, don't pussyfoot about.

How so?
How so?
And how so?

I can throw premises and conclusions around like I'm throwing my shit too. Explain your case.


O Fuck...... you didn't read my first post in this thread, I feel such a fuckin' knobhead now.

Thanks
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26-02-2012, 03:14 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I think we are on the same page NSV. But I wanted to point out that simply eating eggs and milk, while omitting meat doesn't mean you are being kinder. You need to take the extra step of finding a humane product to be truly more kind and not just excuse the practice since the eggs, for example, could have come from a "kind producer."

Truth be told, a battery hen lives an even worse life than a chicken raised for meat in most cases. So you could very well be contributing to more suffering by buying those eggs in the grocery store than by buying the chicken. Also, consider the encouragement of factory farming as discouraging homestead farming. The factory farmed battery hen eggs you buy actually reduces the number of homestead birds. But for every homestead egg you buy, that is one less egg that comes from a mistreated bird, and in the end, fewer mistreated birds overall since you are personally reducing the demand.

My main point here in not what you eat, but the source from which you get your food. Whether you eat meat or only dairy, the only way to make adifference in the suffering of animals is to get what you choose to eat from an appropriate source. Otherwise, you contribute to suffering just as much by eating eggs and dairy as you do eating meat. Sometimes even more. (The kindest thing you could do for a battery hen is to take it's life)

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26-02-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 02:57 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 02:44 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  If you poke a plant with a pin enough times, it will show signs of damage.

Yes, because you poked holes in it. Did you make that assertion out of stupidity or ignorance?

Wow dude, why so combative? I made the statement out the form of asking a question, if you go back to read my post.

Thanks.

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26-02-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 12:27 PM)Zat Wrote:  The word "visibly" is very important to counter the lame argument: "how do you know that a carrot does not object"?

How 'bout audibly? Once you've heard a carrot scream you can't just unhear it. Wink

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26-02-2012, 09:28 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2012 09:55 PM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 05:20 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 02:57 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 02:44 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  If you poke a plant with a pin enough times, it will show signs of damage.

Yes, because you poked holes in it. Did you make that assertion out of stupidity or ignorance?

Wow dude, why so combative? I made the statement out the form of asking a question, if you go back to read my post.

Thanks.

Because you just compared visible physical damage to the exterior of a plant's "skin" to that of a nervous system. My god, what I am supposed to think?

Go back and read your post, and you just might realize why I thought you were being stupid.
(26-02-2012 03:14 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I think we are on the same page NSV. But I wanted to point out that simply eating eggs and milk, while omitting meat doesn't mean you are being kinder. You need to take the extra step of finding a humane product to be truly more kind and not just excuse the practice since the eggs, for example, could have come from a "kind producer."

Truth be told, a battery hen lives an even worse life than a chicken raised for meat in most cases. So you could very well be contributing to more suffering by buying those eggs in the grocery store than by buying the chicken. Also, consider the encouragement of factory farming as discouraging homestead farming. The factory farmed battery hen eggs you buy actually reduces the number of homestead birds. But for every homestead egg you buy, that is one less egg that comes from a mistreated bird, and in the end, fewer mistreated birds overall since you are personally reducing the demand.

My main point here in not what you eat, but the source from which you get your food. Whether you eat meat or only dairy, the only way to make adifference in the suffering of animals is to get what you choose to eat from an appropriate source. Otherwise, you contribute to suffering just as much by eating eggs and dairy as you do eating meat. Sometimes even more. (The kindest thing you could do for a battery hen is to take it's life)


I have been trying to square the circles, but I don't think I can. You bring valid points. I guess I am glad Soy milk tastes so good. =]

Oh and BTW, thank you for being the only competent person here directly and thoroughly contending my OP.

Oh and you probably address it earlier, but I want clarification. What about the morality of eating organic eggs. Eggs obtaining through methods such as your farm. Chickens free to run about without restriction of cages.

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26-02-2012, 10:20 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I'll just accept that you think I'm stupid.
Have a nice day.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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26-02-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I can't think of a single reason why someone could call int question the morality of eating eggs from birds that are kept like mine. They are blissfully happy, their eggs are not even fertilized, and there are no casualties resulting from the egg production. Heck, we don't even put down hens who don't lay anymore. They live out their lives with the flock. I figure they gave me all those eggs, I owe it to em to take care of them after retirement.

But here's the thing....those eggs in the grocery store with the fancy sticker that says "free run" eggs? That probably evokes a less than accurate vision. In the U.S. for example, a farmer can label his eggs free run or free range as long as his chickens have four square feet of space each. Thats a two foot by two foot space. Picture that, then tell me what's free about it. Chickens are foragers. They love nothing more than to wander, picking up a leaf here, and a bug there. So then what's the solution? The key is finding an egg supplier, whether they keep chickens by the half dozen or by the hundred, that will LET YOU SEE THE BIRDS. If a supplier (and this goes for ALL factory farms) claims that their facility is a "bio-clean" zone, or some other nonsense that they use an excuse to hide their birds, walk away. You may not have the ability to actually visit the farm (though if you can I highly recommend it) but just remember this: a farmer who practices good husbandry will not only allow people to see those practices, he'll show them off with great pride.

Now I know this is about eggs and dairy, but I'd like to make a quick point about meat if I may. Meat should work the same way. If the farmer welcomes a visit from someone who will be eating the meat he produces, it's a good bet that meat is raised humanely. My rabbits for example (I know I keep talking about myself here, but it's the best experience I can draw on) are raised for meat, but treated great. I keep two does and a buck. The three of them are convinced it is I who work for them. Lincoln, my buck, will hrow a tantrum if you dare walk past him without stopping to scratch his ears. And squid, one of my does will literally run over to you the moment you sit down so she can climb onto your lap t be stroked. These animals live a good life, and recieve a far kinder death than nature ever provides. They get this from me as my thanks for feeding my family.

I've said it so often that I'm suprised it doesn't show up on Shannows forum visualizations, but I'll say it again. If you choose to eat meat, it shouldn't be as easy as it is. I'm not saying everyone should slaughter all the meat they eat. Some just don't have the means for that. But it should be a sad day when a litter of rabbits get slaughtered. Meat should be thought of as an animal, not a celophane wrapped chunk of food. If you are lucky enough to get your hands on one of my rabbits, rest assured when you come to pick it up, you'll meet it's parents, just so you leave with a sense of appreciation for where it came from.

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27-02-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
Here's something that I've wondered. But, I don't know if it makes sense.

How can you be a vegetarian / vegan and accept evolution? Humans have evolved biologically to be omnivores, so you are biologically programmed to eat anything that you can.

Don't you feel that you're forcibly trying to deny what you are biologically through evolution?

Man... I hope this makes sense...

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27-02-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
Heres my view NSV.

I cant really comment on wether your views are right or wrong.......because it how you feel and that is more important to you.

If you dont wish to participate in the system that you feel is cruel to animals (and having worked in a chicken factory I have seen first hand how shit it is for them) by not buying meat then that is all good.

As for the eggs and the milk.......I think Stark has raised some brilliant points about how stuff can be classified as "free range" and I strongly agree with a lot of what he has to say.

Maybe you need to look at where you source your food from......I do this myself and I have to travel approx 10-15 miles to get my meat........my vegetables are bought from a local allotment.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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