My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
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27-02-2012, 12:11 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2012 12:15 PM by germanyt.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
Let's not forget that you are a omnivore that happens to be at the top of the food chain. I don't understand a moral stance against eating meat. Does a lion question the morality of eating the gazelle?
Just wanted to add that I wouldn't eat dolphin or whale as part of an experiment to allow those animals to evolve undisrupted.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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27-02-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 03:06 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 03:03 PM)Sol Wrote:  At the risk of repetition,
Vegetarianism morally right ???? Don't think so...
Dairy and eggs, wrong if your concern is for animal welfare...
Therefore vegetarianism is inconsistent with animal welfare.
Your either all in or all out with commitment, don't pussyfoot about.

How so?
How so?
And how so?

I can throw premises and conclusions around like I'm throwing my shit too. Explain your case.

I may have got off on the wrong foot, lets try this...

Simply, you cannot make a claim for morality based on personal opinion. (well you can, but it's not valid in any dialectic)

If eating meat were a moral issue then those that eat meat would be, by definition, immoral or at the very least amoral with regard to eating meat. This is patently not true unless all you have is a strong opinion to the contrary (which is still just an opinion however valid).

Morality stems from empathy, in this case empathy toward other living creatures.
This empathy stops you eating meat. Although laudable, it has not reached moral status yet.
This stage of empathy allows you to be a vegetarian whilst still allowing you to contribute to animal suffering. this is evidenced in the cognitive bias of vegetarians who cannot see that they contribute to animal to suffering, by eating dairy.

Diary - (esp Bovine) in order to produce milk you need to breed cows. cows need to have calves, Male calves are not used for milk and not all for breeding, there is a surplus of calves that are slaughtered or force fed to produce veal or used for dead cow by-products. (ergo- They suffer, so you can drink milk).

Eggs - same principal in this respect layers conditions and capon production (they suffer for your omelette)
Butter, cheese, food containing animal fats all contribute to animal suffering, somewhere, at some stage......

Fish - don't get me started on vegetarians and fish.

Vegetarianism is inconsistent with animal welfare if they take dairy etc, see above.
There is no morality in self deception. (evidence religion)

Vegans on the other hand are the real deal they eschew any animal based derivatives and should be supported for their high moral stance and intellectual honesty.

I, on the other hand, only eat meat that I know hasn't suffered, I don't buy it and I treat animals (live or dead) with respect......empathy and opinion

(Is that a little less like throwing shit around ?)
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27-02-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I just go to the store and buy lots of meat to stock my deep freezer. Then I eat when I'm hungry.

Food chain FTW.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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27-02-2012, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2012 02:22 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I am vegetarian. Actually, pescitarian (I eat seafood) but I say vegetarian because people understand that (vegetarians get royally pissed though, ha ha)

Personally, it's more for health than a morality issue, however the morality also plays part in it. I have on slim occasion ate meat, but I'll never eat pork because pigs mourn their dead and that bothers me. Not saying it's the best logic, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Pigs are extremely intelligent, some say more than dogs.

I choose this lifestyle because of our fucked up meat industry. It's much easier to just omit it all than be in search for the right meat, like Stark (which I totally respect). So I am a lazy vegetarian I guess, lol.

For the points made about evolution bringing us to this point (omnivore) that is totally cool, but what about taking evolution a step further in moving to a vegetarian lifestyle, much like atheism being the next social evolution step? Not saying this is how I view it, but just a thought.

Vegetarians statistically are healthier with less disease and cancer rates. I started to look into vegetarianism when everyone around me was dying from cancer and heart diseases who otherwise led healthy lifestyles. I dug really deep and it appears, like anything, the meat lifestyle is HUGE money making on so many levels, and a dirty dirty industry at that. I won't go as far to say it's a conspiracy, lol, but it's a problem IMO. From additives and preservatives, growth hormones and addictive chemicals. Basically when you go to the store to buy lots of meat to stock your freezer you are actually buying lots of meat (one package containing up to 20 different sources of that species) in addition to a chemical and filler cocktail. Yum!

I also think it's weird to say that it isn't an ethical choice because passing starving people and all the other crimes of our life isn't ethical so why care. That is like saying I'm not going to stop smoking because I also drink. Why can't one small step in one area be an okay choice? They say change happens in steps. So vegetarianism doesn't solve other world problems... it maybe solves one though, right? Just saying. Like I said, this isn't the grounds I am pescitarian on, I just thought that argument against is weak Smile

Also, when people say that not eating something because of it's sentient consciousness is stupid- then what's stopping you from eating and killing people you don't know? Why don't we eat people? If someone wants to not eat something based on their relationship with them and the fact they recognize the quality and validity of it's life, isn't that why we don't murder and/or eat other people? I don't know joe-blow on the street, but I don't kill him because I recognize that he has a life he wishes to live further. (again, not the premises I make my choices for animals, but a point that crossed my mind).
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12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 11:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.

Plants do not feel pain and suffer. To cause suffering is prima facie unethical.
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20-06-2012, 05:50 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(26-02-2012 02:47 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  This has been a discussion I've had many times, but I'd still like to weigh in on at least one area.

Eggs and milk are not the same as meat, with regard to "kindness", since the accessability to well treated eggs and milk (well, the animals that give them) is much greater. How often do you drive down a country road and see a hand painted sign that says something like, "fresh eggs" with an arrow pointing down the driveway? I for one, have that very sign. As soon as you turn down the drive, you'll see that you must slow down since my chickens will come running to the car to greet you (and to eat the squashed bugs off your front bumper!). Their eggs are infertile (no need for a roo) and they are about as happy as a chicken can be. In fact if you sit down on my front lawn, you'll likely end up with a chicken sitting in your lap waiting for a treat or just to have it's neck massaged.

This spring our goat will arrive. We've already met, and she is friendly and affectionate. Her home will be as well appointed as any housepet, and she will enjoy plenty of space and companionship. She will, in turn, provide my family with healthy milk, cheese, yogurt, and possibly butter if I can ever master making goat butter (not an easy task compared to cows milk)

I also raise all the meat my family eats. Again, the life our animals live is better than any I've seen. There are others like me around, and if your desire is solely to encourage "happiness", then all you need do is find one of us. An easy task? Perhaps not. But if you are not willing to follow a more challenging path, then aren't you being a little hypocritical? Find the farmer who treats his cows well, both in life and death, and it will make it that much easier for the neighbor down the street who feels the same way you do.

I won't do the health argument. It's been done to death, and your own research will point you in the direction that is best for you.

Now I'm off to make a chicken sandwich for lunch. The chicken was raised in my backyard. The mayo was made with my own eggs. And the bread from wheat I grew in my fields.

SR, I'm extremely impressed with the way you live your life with regard to food. EXTREMELY impressed. Wow.

Long ago I tried vegetarianism for a year--not for health reasons (I don't buy it that meat is always unhealthy) or because I don't like the taste of meat and fish (I do--a lot), but because I don't like the idea of inflicting pain on sentient creatures or treating them like products or "units" instead of living, breathing beings. I stuck it out until the craving for meat, which never stopped, got too strong. And I disliked myself for caving in, for being too weak to stand by my convictions . . . until I realized that what I really objected to was pain and suffering, not the killing itself. If an animal lives a good, full life and then is killed humanely with an absolute minimum of pain and suffering, I'm OK with that.

You're doing it right.

So if you don't mind, let me ask you a few questions:

1. In terms of finding a source for meat, eggs, and dairy like your farm, what would you recommend to someone who lives in a huge city rather than a rural area? (I'm in Los Angeles.)

2. What do you feel about other animal products that pervade our culture, like leather? It's everywhere--shoes, clothing, upholstery . . . Do you try to find humane sources of leather as well? Do you avoid leather entirely? Any other accommodations? And do you have any problem with silk, or is that going too far?

3. How do you feel about fish and seafood?

Thanks.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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22-06-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(12-06-2012 11:42 AM)John Major Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 11:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.

Plants do not feel pain and suffer. To cause suffering is prima facie unethical.
That's good reasoning for me.

So I can continue to eat most fish, no matter how they are killed since they feel no pain.

I can continue to eat meat from local farmers who kill their cows with as minimal pain as possible (at least to the best of their knowledge).

Actually, I can even eat meat that was butchered without consideration for pain. Because the simple ability to feel pain is FAR different than the ability to interpret this pain. But admittedly, this is an undetermined area of biology. We really don't know exactly how all animals interpret pain.

See? Neither side of the argument is clear-cut. Actually, it's very gray. So you continue to eat your helpless plants and I'll continue to eat both helpless plants and helpless animals.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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22-06-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
(12-06-2012 11:42 AM)John Major Wrote:  
(26-02-2012 11:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  It's not wrong. It's just selective compassion.
I assume you think it morally wrong to kill and eat an animal but not plants simply because animals have faces?
I might be wrong.

I like eating animals. They taste great.

Plants do not feel pain and suffer. To cause suffering is prima facie unethical.

You know that how? 'Cause they don't possess a neurological system familiar to us? Is that it?

I've made many plants suffer due to my negligence. They show me their suffering in various noticeable ways.

(27-02-2012 01:46 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  I am vegetarian.

That ain't food, that's what food eats. Big Grin

(27-02-2012 01:46 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  I choose this lifestyle because of our fucked up meat industry.

I agree that The Jungle is still unfortunately relevant a century later. But Stark's figured it out. And so have a lot of other small farmers.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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22-06-2012, 08:34 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
Hey cuff link, good questions!

1. I have two suggestions. First, finding a source for meat etc, may be a bit of a search at first. If you go for a drive in the country, keep an eye out for little "fresh eggs" signs. It could just be a guy with some laying hens, but he's also the guy more likely to know the other guy a few miles down that raises pasture cattle. So ask questions. Shop at farmers markets. A lot of those people will sell other products too, but you gotta ask.

My other suggestion is, check you're zoning laws. If you have a backyard, you can probably keep a couple hens! Believe it or not, a lot of north America allows chickens in the city, just hens though, not roosters. And it's a myth that you need a roo. I KNOW it is a myth. Trust me.

As well as chickens, you may be able to keep a cole rabbits. Try rabbit, and if you like it, why not breed a pair and put a little extra meat in the freezer?


2. Not only do I wear leather, I think it's a great thing. Problem is, the leather on the shelf at the department store is from an animal that was raised for it's leather. The cow was starved, and deprived of water for weeks before it was killed, because it would have been a waste of money to feed it, and because it's easier to skin an emancipated animal. After it was killed, the carcass was discarded, since the starved animal would yield terrible meat.


Leather, hides, skins, furs, whatever, should be harvested from the animals we eat. And although it's hard to avoid in products these days, I do a pretty damn good job of it. My wife sews, crochet, and is extremely creative, so most of what I wear is either from a source that I trust, or my wife, who is the one I trust most. Our meat rabbits become the nicest winter mitts you could imagine. I own few articles of clothing too. I prefer to buy a very high quality hemp sweater that will last for five years of daily wear than a new, cheap cotton one every year.


As for silk.....I guess I'll give it some though. Thing is, I'm a farmer. Ain't no way I'm buying something made of silk! Lol


3. Well I don't do lobster unless I'm on the coast of it's a very special occasion. Allergic to fish, but I'll still feed it to my family if I catch some. They love it, and I enjoy fishing. (yes, I fish, but don't really want to go there. It's potentially a whole new topic)




Look, I'm not the strictest when it comes to these things I do. I've found that being overly strict ("you may never eat another burger again") just makes the whole thing discouraging. Instead, I do as MANY things that I can to improve stuff, and the strictness isn't necessary, because one day you just turn around and go, "holy shit, I haven't eaten a McDonald's for three friggin years!"


Now go and grow a tomato plant in your window!

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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22-06-2012, 09:22 PM
RE: My Vegetarianism, under the scope.
I would probably buy more meat that uses cak, or controlled atmosphere killing.

Where the cattle, chickens, piggys, are killed by an inert gas like nitrogen or argon.

The effects produced make the animals feel amazing before death ensues, and kills very quickly.

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