My Wife the Believer
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28-12-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 07:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To this, an unbeliever will likely tell her that...

I would simply tell her that I have never known the Divine as she does. I have never had that experience.

You, her life-long partner and a fellow believer can't share that depth of devotion. How could anybody expect me to?

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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28-12-2014, 11:15 PM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 08:00 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 12:31 PM)morondog Wrote:  What. The. Fuck.

I'm not liking the fact "tomasia" has taken to editing out content from their posts one bit.

Dodgy

Pretty troll-y behaviour. Believe people have been banned for it in the past? People shouldn't try to pretend they didn't say stuff.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-12-2014, 12:17 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 11:15 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 08:00 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I'm not liking the fact "tomasia" has taken to editing out content from their posts one bit.

Dodgy

Pretty troll-y behaviour. Believe people have been banned for it in the past? People shouldn't try to pretend they didn't say stuff.

Warning has been issued; steps taken to try to prevent this from continuing. It's just douchy. I don't think anyone has been banned for it (I could be wrong), but it's seriously frowned upon.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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29-12-2014, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2014 01:07 PM by Paleophyte.)
RE: My Wife the Believer
Post belonged in Forum Team Matters. Relocated there by Paleophyte as it has no direct bearing on any discussions in this thread. My apologies for misposting it.

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29-12-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 08:24 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I would simply tell her that I have never known the Divine as she does. I have never had that experience.

That's true. But the intent of my post, wasn't to provide something transferable, that would convince others of what she believes, but to say why someone such as herself would believe, even if fully aware that she posses no transferable evidence, or scientific evidence.

It was also addressed to those who would say she or others shouldn't believe what she does because of the lack of such evidence, or based on her own subjective evaluations and experiences, particularly for big questions such as God.

The overarching point of the original OP, is to say that the theism vs atheism debate is not really just a matter of lack of evidence per se, but certain presuppositional beliefs, about the confidence or mistrust one should have on their own subjective evaluations and experiences, and if we should solely rely on confirmation by the scientific establishment before making a judgement on what's true or not in regards to big questions.

Quote:You, her life-long partner and a fellow believer can't share that depth of devotion. How could anybody expect me to?

Even though I may not share it in the way she does, I am observer of it, not just in her, but others as well. I can see that there is something profound and moving about it, that's there's something more to it than the sum of its parts. That here lay something more valuable than life itself, that early in my life I may have been oblivious too, but here I was desiring and seeing what was out of reach.

As an observer I can always explore the questions it raises for me, but I don't expect a non-observer, or a non-participant to be able to do the same.
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29-12-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(29-12-2014 07:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's true. But the intent of my post, wasn't to provide something transferable, that would convince others of what she believes, but to say why someone such as herself would believe, even if fully aware that she posses no transferable evidence, or scientific evidence.

Imho, the skillful way you presented the story credibly raised the question of whether it really is irrational for her to hold such beliefs, given the benefits she appears to obtain, and you appear to obtain as well.

Would it be more rational for your wife to stomp around yelling, "Fuck that god shit, show me the damn evidence!!!"?

Quote:The overarching point of the original OP, is to say that the theism vs atheism debate is not really just a matter of lack of evidence per se, but certain presuppositional beliefs, about the confidence or mistrust one should have on their own subjective evaluations and experiences, and if we should solely rely on confirmation by the scientific establishment before making a judgement on what's true or not in regards to big questions.

It seems to me the application of core atheist principles would address these issues effectively...

- Challenge the theism vs atheism debate

- Challenge the usefulness of evidence

- Challenge presuppositional beliefs

- Challenge subjective evaluations and experiences

- Challenge the scientific establishment

- Challenge making judgments

- Challenge the challenging

Quote:Even though I may not share it in the way she does, I am observer of it, not just in her, but others as well. I can see that there is something profound and moving about it, that's there's something more to it than the sum of its parts.

What makes you somewhat rare on atheist forums is that you are willing to study and learn about that which you don't believe in, and perhaps even wish to debunk in some ways.

Quote:As an observer I can always explore the questions it raises for me, but I don't expect a non-observer, or a non-participant to be able to do the same.

Here I suspect you are underselling yourself as a writer. Lots of readers won't understand you, primarily because they are determined not to, but I'm convinced you're providing a useful service to a segment of the audience, and that's all any of us can hope to accomplish.
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29-12-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 09:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Here she was so attuned to life and beauty, that I could only seek but never find. Here she was possessing what a man would give his entire life for.
That's beautiful man. She sounds like a lovely, eminently loveable lady. To be able to witness another's inner beauty, and scars, is so much of what brings meaning to life.

Also like what you said about goodness ranking higher on the list of virtues than wisdom. Some of the most touching moments can be seen among the mentally challenged giving of themselves, while not knowing their own limitations.

There's a multitude of theist ladies I could give my life to without thinking twice about it. Beauty is more than belief deep. So is wisdom.
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29-12-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(28-12-2014 11:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 11:25 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  It is possible, perhaps, for you to occupy a more profound world of your own discovery, that doesn't rely on religion as the means to that end.

I don't think it would make sense to say she relies on her religion, or that her religion is a means to that end.

The underlying things she believes in are not rooted in a particular belief system in this regard, and in some sense lack form or shape. Her religious beliefs are just a means to give those things a form, to take the pictures that reside in her wallet, and frame them on the wall. They provide a string of lyrics to a tune she hears quite well.

In other words her beliefs are not beliefs, they are experiences, her underlying sense of life, that she gives words to, through the symbols and stories she finds best conveys this for her, and for others. Her religion is beyond religion, her God beyond God, they are life.

Quote:Her means don't work for you. You can't get a ticket on her bus. So what?
You have your own means. Reason.

Reason can only take a man to the water, to plunge ourselves so deeply in it, to overcome our fear or drowning, of failure, and being swallowed whole, requires more than reason.


What I find with people who are spiritually religious, as your wife seems to be, is their complete lack of curiosity. Curiosity directed towards ones own beliefs or simply asking those basic journalistic questions; who, what, how, when, where and why. I just can't go through life without those questions in my head as a foundation for living and others who don't ask these questions I find.....curiously odd.

I'm sure she's a nice person , but personally I couldn't marry someone who didn't ask questions. To each their own though.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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29-12-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
(29-12-2014 10:31 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I just can't go through life without those questions in my head as a foundation for living and others who don't ask these questions I find.....curiously odd.

I think you are referencing the "lives in one's head" versus "lives in one's heart" variety of the human experience.

Yes, most of us here, myself very much included, have no option but to do a great deal of thinking, analyzing and questioning etc. We were born to have this experience, the decision was made in our family gene pool before we were born. We probably don't even control it, and couldn't turn it off if we wanted to.

It's a cool thing we have.

But it's not a "one true way" and certainly not the only valid way to be a human being. Perhaps that is the message of this thread?
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29-12-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: My Wife the Believer
Reposting this because OP is a faggot.

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