My answer to GWG
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24-10-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 08:59 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The holocaust was prophesied.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Also, it was stated that no prayer would save those involved.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Judaism will be brought back under the direction and love of God at the time that God so chooses.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 03:13 PM)Anjele Wrote:  ...
There needs to be a point to starting a thread...even multiple ones? Gasp

Missed another memo. Damnit. Facepalm

I do wish you'd keep up on the memos. Stark and Moms put so much effort into writing them and getting the expensive lawyers to validate them.

See Section 42 of the TTA Penal Code; Subsection 56,753.12.3

(24-10-2015 03:57 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end.
— Chapter 4, verse 11


I know all past and all present and future existences, O Arjuna, but Me none yet knows.Chapter 7, verse 26

Thou seest Me as Time who kills, Time who brings all to doom,
The Slayer Time, Ancient of Days, come hither to consume;
Excepting thee, of all these hosts of hostile chiefs arrayed,
There shines not one shall leave alive the battlefield!

— Chapter 11, verse 32


Ask your spirit who said this.

And no cheating now. Google doesn't count as a spiritual guide.

Oooh! I know, I know. Pick me, pick me!

(24-10-2015 05:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  ...
I don't have a goal to convince people to accept another interpretation/ understanding. Period. Smile

But it does appear that someone else had a goal to convince you.

Am I right?

Dodgy

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24-10-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 09:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 08:59 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The holocaust was prophesied.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Also, it was stated that no prayer would save those involved.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Judaism will be brought back under the direction and love of God at the time that God so chooses.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage
Read the book. Jeremiah.
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24-10-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 09:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 08:59 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The holocaust was prophesied.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Also, it was stated that no prayer would save those involved.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Judaism will be brought back under the direction and love of God at the time that God so chooses.

Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage
Verse would be taking out of context. I know you really enjoy doing that, but it is counter productive.
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25-10-2015, 02:41 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 06:28 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Blink

Well outside of never never land where people make up shit under the guise of religious "tradition", all evidence available shows that John was the only apostle to escape a violent death, and was banished to the Island of Patmos from 95-99 CE and died around 100 CE in Ephesus. He is the one apostle that rumor had it that he would never die but that’s contrary to biblical teaching for its appointed for all to die and then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).

No dear, Moses never existed, he was one of many characters within the bible that was a compilation of older myths...

The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.

When you analyze the Pentateuch, you will find doublets and triplets. These are pairs of stories which occur in two separate locations in the text. The doublets generally do not agree fully; there are usually minor differences between the stories. R.E. Friedman, in his 1997 book "Who Wrote the Bible?" lists a number of them:

Two creation stories in Genesis.
Two descriptions of the Abrahamic covenant.
Two stories of the naming of Isaac.
Two instances where Abraham deceived a king by introducing his wife Sarah as his sister.
Two stories of Jacob traveling to Mesopotamia
Two stories of a revelation at Beth-el to Jacob.
Two accounts of God changing Jacob's name to Israel
Two instances where Moses extracted water from two different rocks at two different locations called Meribah.

These doublets appeared to contradict each other. In most cases, one referred to God as Yahweh while the other used the term Elohim.

Theologians reason that a much more logical explanation is that the books were written by multiple authors who lived long after the events described. That would have allowed the oral tradition to be passed from generation to generation in different areas of the land so that they had a chance to deviate from each other before being written down.

Both Judaism and Christianity assumed that the Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were written by Moses, as the Bible itself states. However, in recent centuries, alternative authorship has been proposed. The documentary hypothesis is now accepted by essentially all mainline and liberal theologians.

- 11th Century CE: Isaac ibn Yashush suggested that the list of the Edomite kings in Genesis 36 was added by an unknown person after Moses died. For this assertion, he became known as "Isaac the Blunderer." 1

- 15th Century: Bishop Tostatus suggested that certain passages were written by one of the prophets, not by Moses.

- 16th Century: Andreas van Maes suggested that an editor added additional material to some of Moses' writings.

- 17th Century: Thomas Hobbes prepared a collection of passages that seemed to negate Moses' authorship.

- 18th Century: Three investigators (Witter, Astruc and Eichhorn) independently concluded that doublets in the Torah were written by two different authors. A doublet is a story that is described twice.

- 19th Century: Scholars noticed that there were a few triplets in the Torah. This indicated that a third author was involved. Then, they determined that the book of Deuteronomy was written in a different language style from the remaining 4 books in the Pentateuch. Finally, by the end of the 19th Century, liberal scholars reached a consensus that 4 authors and one redactor (editor) had been actively involved in the writing of the Pentateuch.

- 20th Century: Academics have continued to refine the Documentary Hypothesis by identifying which verses (and parts of verses) were authored by the various writers. They have also attempted to uncover the names of the authors. In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in which he urged academics to study the sources of Biblical texts. Recent archaeological discoveries and new linguistic analysis tools have facilitated the research into the hypothesis.

Belief in the documentary hypothesis was triggered by a number of factors, such as:

- Anachronisms, like the list of the Edomite kings;

- Duplicate and triplicate passages

- Various passages portrayed God in different ways;

- The flood story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories;

- The belief, centuries ago, by archaeologists and linguists that writing among the ancient Hebrews only developed after the events portrayed in the Pentateuch. Thus, Moses would have been incapable of writing the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

These factors led theologians to the conclusion that the Pentateuch is a hybrid document which was written well after "Moses" death, and much later than the events portrayed. The authors and redactors are unknown, and are commonly referred to as authors J, E, P and D.
None of that proves that Moses wasn't real. If the things in the Torah where written numerous times by numerous people then it lends credence to the validity of it. First y'all say that the experience of an individual isn't valid as evidence, then you go on to say that more than one person with a similar story is an inconsistency instead of verification of the story or lesson. Make up your mind.

Moses may or may not have been real, but Moses did not write the Pentateuch. The stories in the Pentateuch began as oral traditions. In a preliterate culture people pass stories from generation to generation, with the variations one would expect from this giant game of telephone. (Of course even events that are recorded, in writing, as they happen can have some elements of distortion.) Without a written tradition, there's no way to know the original story; all that's certain is that the original story was different.

If your criterion for truth or validity is that if multiple people tell slightly different versions of the same story, the story must be true, then leprechauns, the Coyote god, Zeus, witches, elves, and that guy with the hook who murders amorous teenagers in their cars all exist.
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25-10-2015, 03:12 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 10:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 09:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage


Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage


Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage
Verse would be taking out of context. I know you really enjoy doing that, but it is counter productive.


Oh, so unless we read it with your conspiracy seeking presuppositions, then we aren't reading it in the proper context?

Why am I not surprised?

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25-10-2015, 03:55 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(25-10-2015 03:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 10:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Verse would be taking out of context. I know you really enjoy doing that, but it is counter productive.


Oh, so unless we read it with your conspiracy seeking presuppositions, then we aren't reading it in the proper context?

Why am I not surprised?
No one said anything about conspiracy. If you're gonna read a book to understand the story would you read a sentence, paragraph, or the whole book?
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25-10-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 09:18 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 08:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Some questions:
- Where on the scale of belief do you lie? Say 0% is no confidence that your beliefs are true and 100% is no doubt that your belief is true.
- Could someone hold a belief that gives them hope, gives them peace, helps them be a better person, makes them feel like they have answers to life's questions, and reminds them of things... and yet for that belief to be false?
- Some on this forum find those benefits without following Joseph Smith. Some Muslims find those benefits? How am I to know who amongst you is most correct if you all tell me your beliefs are true and all give much the same reason for believing?
There is not a single prophet. Never was. Prophets come by the will of God. For a religion to attest that a prophet was the last or first or only one is a matter of greed. Look at all the prophets in scripture. There are quite a few. Some may be more significant than others. Some may be more without fault under God, but there was never just one. By the way the second coming of the Crist will be through a multitude of like minded individuals under the selfless direction of God.

That reads a lot like not answering any of the questions posed. Are you saying that none among the religious are any more correct than any other? Did you not have an answer to where on the belief scale you lie?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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25-10-2015, 06:06 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(25-10-2015 05:56 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 09:18 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  There is not a single prophet. Never was. Prophets come by the will of God. For a religion to attest that a prophet was the last or first or only one is a matter of greed. Look at all the prophets in scripture. There are quite a few. Some may be more significant than others. Some may be more without fault under God, but there was never just one. By the way the second coming of the Crist will be through a multitude of like minded individuals under the selfless direction of God.

That reads a lot like not answering any of the questions posed. Are you saying that none among the religious are any more correct than any other? Did you not have an answer to where on the belief scale you lie?
My personal belief? I know without a doubt that if I can do my part God will do his. My Faith in God : 100%

My Faith in myself at this exact time : 65%

Hope that answers your question.
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25-10-2015, 08:52 AM
RE: My answer to GWG
(24-10-2015 10:21 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 09:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage


Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage


Where? Cite chapter and verse, please. Drinking Beverage
Read the book. Jeremiah.

I heard Jeremiah was a bullfrog...





Please ground your references as Girly requests.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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