My argument against atheism
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26-08-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: My argument against atheism
(26-08-2013 08:51 AM)fullerm Wrote:  All atheists believe these atomic interactions magically create mental states out of thin air.
I can see why some theists are convinced that there must be a god.
The idea of evolution forming incredibly complex creatures merely out of atoms, energy and time, as well as the idea that we ourselves are merely a bunch of atoms doing what atoms must rather than being able to make choices can be difficult to swallow.

But like you, I am not happy to accept the concept of magic without verifiable evidence.
I do not agree that there is any magical element to the brain or to life.
Thus I discard the concept of a soul and free will.

Religious ideas seem to me to be for people who find material reality too amazing to understand.
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26-08-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: My argument against atheism
More reading for you Fullerm

http://phys.org/news/2013-08-complex-beh...brain.html

The question remains, will any of this make a difference to you or are you simply set in your own lack of understanding and unwillingness to learn ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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26-08-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: My argument against atheism
"It's just atoms, there must be some form of magic that results in more abstract products from just these tiny building blocks. QED: God"

Is that your argument? That's what it seems like it is, and it's fucking stupid.

And before you post "no it's a strawman," I will preemptively inform you that the first rule of debating is that when you bring forth an argument, PRESENT ALL YOUR IDEAS ON THE FUCKING TABLE. Don't send people off on an easter egg hunt to find them, so that's your problem for being so reluctant to share the whole meat of your argument in a readily accessible format.

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26-08-2013, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2013 04:49 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: My argument against atheism
(20-08-2013 05:13 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  You know the whole "I only wanna discuss with highly intellectual people" runs both ways right?

What qualifies you to have this discussion? before you go around asking for "only highly intellectual" people.
Or are you just another theist fucktard who thinks he has the answer to all the worlds problems and anybody who thinks differently clearly isn't "highly intelligent"?
Are you Egor by any chance?

Also, if you want a discussion on why your views are somehow superior, then perhaps people might be more motivated to tear you a new one if you offered up a little more about your views then "go read what this guy has to say, I have no opinions of my own because I agree with him 100%".
Such comments by a person of Earmuff's 'wisdom' , along with seven of his fans, does nothing for sane, polite, and open debate.
Not much has changed hereArgue

Hey Cantor....you joined the Muffster's charm school?
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26-08-2013, 04:41 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 12:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: My argument against atheism
(26-08-2013 08:51 AM)fullerm Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 08:42 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Sooo, let me get this straight; I don't know how atoms form into the molecules which comprise cells and make the brain work.

Therefore, this means that your god exists, as demonstrated by my gap of knowledge.
Or am i missing something here, aside from missing the Gap in which deity X hides?
No that's a straw man. What you refuse to acknowledge is that a brain is simply atoms interacting with each other. All atheists believe these atomic interactions magically create mental states out of thin air.

False. Completely false. 110 % false.
The premise is false. Atheists are not somehow *left* with (only) the notion that "atoms produce thoughts". They do not make that claim. They have never made that claim. The claim is ridiculous. (Neither do educated theists claim that the gods produce thoughts). No scientifically educated person thinks that "atoms (interacting) produce thoughts".

The brain is composed of complex structures WHICH ARE THEMSELVES composed of proteins and cells and molecules, which are themselves composed of atoms, which are composed of smaller units of matter, which are composed of even smaller units of matter, and ultimately energy. Your utter lack of knowledge of science is astounding, for someone who *claimed* to only converse with intelligent people.

No scientist, (or Neuro-scientist, or Neuro-physiologist) claims that *atoms* "produce thoughts". Not one.
Your premise, and argument is totally based on a complete fallacy, due to your complete lack of training in Biology, Chemistry, and Physics.

Your argument has a blatantly false premise, and is based on the ridiculous notion that if atoms do not "think" or produce "thoughts", there must be a god.

It's a gigantic illiogical non-sequitur. Atoms cannot think and no one claims they can. It has NOTHING to doing with deities.
Complex brain structures which are composed of atoms have evolved the capacity to process information, in humans and other species. This argument is the equivalent garbage as the argument would be, that says "atoms pump blood" (in the circulatory system). or that "atoms see", in the visual system. The circulatory system is COMPOSED of atoms. Atoms by themselves can do nothing, without being arranged into structures. But why stop (or randomly pick out) at atoms ? Why not protons, neutrons, or electrons ? Why not say that quarks "think" ? Or the energy that makes up all matter ? You choice of the atomic level, is completely arbitrary and capricious.
Atoms are essential components of larger complex structures, which have physiological functions, including perception and what is called "consciousness".

Consciousness seems to arise from the MOLECULAR level of organization. (NOT atomic). Why ? Probably for very good reasons. In order to be "conscious", there has to be memory and sensory input. Atoms cannot "see" or "hear", on their own. But they make up structures which can think. They ARE integral to the complex systems from which sight, and memory arise, and MOLECULAR structure is necessary for laying down memories, and perception, (from which consciousness arises). The energy absorption of atoms by electrons is necessary for sensory perception, and sight, and sound, and feeling. Single atoms are not "conscious", nor do they possess the mechanisms to produce it. So the premise of this thread is a preposterous straw-man, based on every sort of scientific ignorance. If you don't understand something, the LAST thing that is logical, is to say, "oh, I don't get it, so a god did it".

(Along with some Biology, and basic sciences, maybe you could get some training in Logic).
Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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26-08-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: My argument against atheism
(26-08-2013 04:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  False. Completely false. 110 % false.
The brain is composed of complex structures WHICH ARE THEMSELVES composed of molecules, which are themselves composed of atoms, which are composed of smaller units of matter, which are composed of even smaller units of matter, and ultimately energy. Your utter lack of knowledge of science is astounding, for someone who *claimed* to only converse with intelligent people.

No scientist, (or Neuro-scientist, or Neuro-physiologist) claims that *atoms* "produce thoughts". Not one.
Your premise, and argument is totally based on a complete fallacy, due to your complete lack of training in Biology, Chemistry, and Physics.

Your argument has a blatantly false premise, and is based on the ridiculous notion that if atoms do not "think" or produce "thoughts", there must be a god.
It's a gigantic non-sequitur. Atoms cannot think and no one claims they can. It has NOTHING to doing with deities.
Complex brain structures which are composed of atoms have evolved the capacity to process information, in humans and other species. This argument is the equivalent garbage as the argument would be, that says "atoms pump blood" (in the circulatory system). The circulatory system is COMPOSED of atoms. Atoms by themselves can do nothing, without being arranged into structures. But why stop (or randomly pick out) at atoms ? Why not protons, neutrons, or electrons ? Why not say that quarks "think" ? Or the energy that makes up all matter ? You choice of the atomic level, is completely arbitrary and capricious.

Consciousness seems to arise from the MOLECULAR level of organization. (NOT atomic). Why ? Probably for very good reasons. In order to be "conscious", there has to be memory and sensory input. Atoms cannot "see" or "hear", on their own. But they make up structures which can think. They ARE integral to the complex systems from which sight, and memory arise, and MOLECULAR structure is necessary for laying down memories, and perception, (from which consciousness arises). The energy absorption of atoms by electrons is necessary for sensory perception, and sight, and sound, and feeling. Single atoms are not "conscious", nor do they possess the mechanisms to produce it. So the premise of this thread is a preposterous straw-man, based on every sort of scientific ignorance. If you don't understand something, the LAST thing that is logical, is to say, "oh, I don't get it, so a god did it".

(Along with some Biology, and basic sciences, maybe you could get some training in Logic).
Weeping

This post is a thing of beauty.
Bowing
My appreciation is only slightly tempered by pity for the willful ignoramus in question.

Here I reiterate an introductory text on the matter, for those interested:
(24-08-2013 09:47 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ...learn something.

... this is my signature!
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27-08-2013, 06:09 AM
RE: My argument against atheism
(26-08-2013 04:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 08:51 AM)fullerm Wrote:  No that's a straw man. What you refuse to acknowledge is that a brain is simply atoms interacting with each other. All atheists believe these atomic interactions magically create mental states out of thin air.

False. Completely false. 110 % false.
The brain is composed of complex structures WHICH ARE THEMSELVES composed of proteins and cells and molecules, which are themselves composed of atoms, which are composed of smaller units of matter, which are composed of even smaller units of matter, and ultimately energy. Your utter lack of knowledge of science is astounding, for someone who *claimed* to only converse with intelligent people.

No scientist, (or Neuro-scientist, or Neuro-physiologist) claims that *atoms* "produce thoughts". Not one.
Your premise, and argument is totally based on a complete fallacy, due to your complete lack of training in Biology, Chemistry, and Physics.

Your argument has a blatantly false premise, and is based on the ridiculous notion that if atoms do not "think" or produce "thoughts", there must be a god.
It's a gigantic non-sequitur. Atoms cannot think and no one claims they can. It has NOTHING to doing with deities.
Complex brain structures which are composed of atoms have evolved the capacity to process information, in humans and other species. This argument is the equivalent garbage as the argument would be, that says "atoms pump blood" (in the circulatory system). The circulatory system is COMPOSED of atoms. Atoms by themselves can do nothing, without being arranged into structures. But why stop (or randomly pick out) at atoms ? Why not protons, neutrons, or electrons ? Why not say that quarks "think" ? Or the energy that makes up all matter ? You choice of the atomic level, is completely arbitrary and capricious.

Consciousness seems to arise from the MOLECULAR level of organization. (NOT atomic). Why ? Probably for very good reasons. In order to be "conscious", there has to be memory and sensory input. Atoms cannot "see" or "hear", on their own. But they make up structures which can think. They ARE integral to the complex systems from which sight, and memory arise, and MOLECULAR structure is necessary for laying down memories, and perception, (from which consciousness arises). The energy absorption of atoms by electrons is necessary for sensory perception, and sight, and sound, and feeling. Single atoms are not "conscious", nor do they possess the mechanisms to produce it. So the premise of this thread is a preposterous straw-man, based on every sort of scientific ignorance. If you don't understand something, the LAST thing that is logical, is to say, "oh, I don't get it, so a god did it".

(Along with some Biology, and basic sciences, maybe you could get some training in Logic).
Weeping

/thread

Your argument has just been entirely demolished, fuller.

Now go get an education in neuroscience and biology. Drinking Beverage

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02-09-2013, 03:53 AM
RE: My argument against atheism
Once again, I am left in awe of Bucky's complete destruction of the OP. I have nothing more I could add. Well played sir, well played.

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02-09-2013, 05:58 AM
RE: My argument against atheism
(02-09-2013 03:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Once again, I am left in awe of Bucky's complete destruction of the OP. I have nothing more I could add. Well played sir, well played.

You're in awe of a gigantic equivocation/straw man fallacy? I guess that says a lot. Equivocating phenomena from one level of reality to another (cellular to atomic to energy) is completely moronic. With a human being there is no blood at the atomic level (just atoms) or the energy level (just energy). There is thought though. He can't explain that (or even imagine that) so he ridiculously confines himself to the cellular level.
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02-09-2013, 06:26 AM
RE: My argument against atheism
I'm still waiting for a claim to be made and a supporting argument to be presented Wink Claiming responses are straw men but failing to clarify your argument is disingenuous and faulty.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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