My conversion...
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06-02-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 10:58 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:51 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Wrong. The definition of atheism is "lack of belief", your whole dream shows otherwise (and how you went about it). Please stop trying to use that fallacy, it hasn't worked before and still doesn't work.

Exactly, if I had a dream like that, I'd certainly go see a doctor before I assumed any type of divine message. I'd want to rule out a serious health problem.

Science for the win!

Yeah, science bitches!

BTW, Drich:
Just for clarification, you may have been going through the "deconversion" process, but at the time mentioned you were not an atheist. You would be considered an agnostic at best. If you're still talking to God and using him as an excuse, that is not atheism.

I'm honestly trying to get you to understand the difference. Ask questions if you need to.

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06-02-2014, 11:05 PM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 11:00 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:52 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  No mommy no!
Not again, you pwomised! Sadcryface Weeping


Yay! Hughsies! (no not you actual Hughsie)

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06-02-2014, 11:50 PM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 09:44 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 09:10 PM)Pippen Wrote:  This is going to sound awfully rude, but do you think you might have a personality disorder? That is not normal behaviour. You sound very angry and you said you had a hard life.

You have provided an example of your behaviour when you hated God. What is different now? I only ask because you still sound angry as all get out.
dude I was 19/20ish... What kid who has lived a hard life is not angry at that age?

As far as who I am now.. My wife described me (I just asked her) as Passionate, a Pun-ie/dry sense of humor, She also say I am very objective/disconnected from personal feeling when a decision has to be made.

Does that make me angry person now? Honestly I do not care. Tongue

Ok. But what is different now? You have every right to be fucked off at the world if you feel it has shat on you. But at some stage you will have to seek or grant forgiveness to actual people in your life rather than have it handed to you by an arbitrary and imaginary deity.

You say you don't care. I would care for all it was worth to get out of the hurt you are in. I don't know you or your life. I could never even hope to.
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07-02-2014, 01:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 01:55 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 02:06 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  ((I haven't read the other replies, yet. I wanted to post this first, and then I'll read through and follow up.))

I'll leave aside the question of how you could be angry at a God you didn't believe existed. I'm sure others will pounce on it.

As for the rest, I could take you entirely at your word that this is exactly what you experienced, and still not read the slightest supernatural element into it. It sounds indistinguishable from a nightmare... exactly like a nightmare, in fact... and maybe a touch of sleep apnea and night-sweats. (The apnea is usually quite treatable.)) I say "sounds indistinguishable", because hey, maybe you found a way to tell the difference. If so, how did you discern between the two possibilities? I'm curious as to the methodology you employed.
None, If you look at the story again I identified it as a dream. Why? Because I started my journey in Bed and I woke up in Bed. therefore by definition it was a dream... That said so what? In your world is God prohibited in using dreams to communicate to you? There is a well established history of God using dreams to communicate to man. As I said in the above post:"Wouldn't it stand to reason that the God of the universe who created the natural world would create processed He can use to accomplish His will? What makes you think God is always bound to work in ways we can not describe or possiable understand? "

God is not found in How an event happens, but in the message itself.

You seem to have misunderstood my question. I'm not expressing disbelief that the conventional notion of God, if He existed, COULD communicate with dreams. I'm expressing confusion about how you reached the conclusion that this dream of yours had its origin with a divine being. I'm not asking, "could it have gone down like that," I'm asking, "Why do you think that it DID go down like that?" Even if we were to assume that something like the conventional notion of God were to exist and communicated to some people through some dreams, how would you identify this PARTICULAR dream as coming from God, rather than just being the sort of dream you might naturally dream up? Do you think the human mind is incapable of naturally constructing that sort of thing in a dream? Do you think all dreams God-sent, or just special ones? Special how? How did you reach that conclusion? Did you ever ask yourself, "was this just a dream or was it something more?" How did you find your answer, and was your method for finding your answer a good method, or one that is prone to error? How did you come to authenticate this as a God-sent dream rather than just a dream?

... also, you said that the reason Christians have for sticking around in this life is to spread the message to non-Christians. But if the message can get spread by dreams, wouldn't that mean that base is covered?

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:Also, would you have accepted this level of evidence as justification for another belief?
This was just the tip of the Iceberg. I have said many times if one is willing to A/S/K God will do whatever it takes to establish (which is what happened here,) AND Maintain a relationship with you. Which happens everyday for the rest of your life.

.... okay, when you wrote A/S/K like that, before, I just assumed it was some silly formatting thing for emphasis. Is that some sort of acronym or acrostic or something? Because if you've ever explained it here, I missed the post. Is that the method you used?

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote: If, for example, you had a dream/vision/pick your term, in which it was Mohamed and not Jesus who rescued you, would you be a Muslim now?
I would have looked in that direction for sure... But I would have quickly found out Allah does not offer a Follower of Islam the Love The God of the bible offers. Again it was not Hell that moved me. It was the nanosecond of complete and total Love that pushed me towards God. Without that I don't care what else a deity has to offer.

Which, of course, is evading the question. The offer being related by a book or priest or dream or whatever is meaningless if the being purported by that medium to be making the offer doesn't actually exist.

... also, how do you know what you would have found?

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote: For that matter, how did you tell the difference between the two...
The God of the bible offers Love, allah offers reward. If I was a space smuggler with a large bounty on my head i might be into allah.

See above about the validity of offers.

.... wait, Han Solo was a Muslim?

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:can you recognize either of them by sight?
yes, no question.


(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote: If you had one of life as a worm and the Buddha came to you and told you that this is what would happen to you if you did not mend your ways, would you become a Buddhist?
probably not.. I can find contentment as a worm.

I probably could, too. Yet you also relate that it wasn't fear of hell (or, by extension in this hypothetical, wormhood) that moved you. It was the caring of an enlightened being seeking to help you avoid this fate.

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:If you had one of Hades offering you a choice between the Fields of Punishment and Elysium, would you now be worshiping the Greek gods?
No, i would rather face Hell or the worst the greek gods could muster rather than live without the God of the Bible.

Yet that's still a faulty analysis. You're presenting it as "if I could choose one or the other, so I choose to live with the Biblical God." (WHY you would do that is a mystery, but whatever.) But I'm presenting you with a scenario where, with you strongly doubting or disbelieving the notion of the Christian god, you receive the same type of dream-evidence... only it's not for the Christian god, it's for the Greek gods. What would have happened then? Would the revelation from Hades would have somehow inspired you from that state to Christianity, and not Hellenism? Would you have faced the worst the Greek gods could muster rather than live without a Christian god that you didn't believe existed? Since you didn't believe he existed, wouldn't you be living without that Christian god regardless? Do I have that chronology right? Your life sucked, so you got angry at the Christian God, and then by the time for your dream, you were taunting and challenging the Christian god because you thought the whole concept made no sense whatsoever and you'd stopped believing? If you had that dream-evidence of a different religion, would you have turned away from it in favor of the god you were taunting and daring because you thought the notion didn't make any sense?

(06-02-2014 08:33 PM)Drich Wrote:  
Quote:If you hadn't had any of these dreams personally, but were hearing them second-hand from a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Hellenic, would you be greatly moved by them? And if the answer to any of the questions in this paragraph is no, then why would you expect us to put much weight on your account?
Begs the question. you have fail to consider the elements that turn me on to the God of the bible. It was not promise of reward or fear of Hell It was the Agape' ONLY The God of the Bible offers. No other deity or religion offers this. (I have studied them, google it if you do not want to take my word for it)

By your account, isn't the element that first turned you (back) to the God of the Bible that dream you related?

And again, the offer being related is worthless unless one already believes that the Christian god exists to back it up. It's a bit like believing an email from a rich Nigerian who will pay you a million dollars to help move money through your bank account, and believing it because you want the million dollars. (Not to be too subtle about it, but that million is a metaphor for the love that the Christian god supposedly offers.) Believing because you want to believe is natural human instinct, but.... not very smart. And THEN, when someone challenges you on it, you admit that you believe it's true because you want the million dollars, not because you've got some valid reason to trust a standard spamming scam, and that nothing else of lesser value would tempt you in the same way. What I don't get is that you're doing this proudly.

This is, of course, an imperfect metaphor. Among other things, emails can be shown to others, and you realize you've been scammed in this life.
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07-02-2014, 02:03 AM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 10:18 PM)Drich Wrote:  shoo fly.

Look at it this way, Mom! You made a convert!


*preemptively shoos*
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07-02-2014, 04:14 AM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 10:44 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The fuck you say!?

Are you really that thick headed? You never DEconverted. You continued to believe that's why you assumed when you had your "dream" (read hallucination), it was god who tickled your taint!

An atheist who had deconverted would not have assumed such an asinine dream was a message from god! He/she would have seen a fucking doctor.

Now for the LAST TIME shoo fly!

(06-02-2014 10:48 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  He's the new reason mommy drinks and why we obviously can't have nice things too.

Wow, Moms got feisty. Now, I want you to stop and tell us how you really feel.

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Tongue Hug

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07-02-2014, 04:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 06:30 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 11:41 AM)Drich Wrote:  ah, no. your changing the 'modified razo' to fit your arguement. That is why I left the link so you would know what the orginal intent of the razor was, then you could see your misuse of it

(06-02-2014 11:41 AM)Drich Wrote:  To change the perviously modified version, is not going to be allow here, because at that point it no longer can be considered OCCAM'S Razor. Maybe Mathildia's Razor..

I knew the moment I mentioned Occam's razor that it would end up in a debate about what it actually is. I'm face palming at the moment. It's such a typical Christian response to ignore the principle of Occam's razor. Argue about what exactly it is rather than how it has been used against your argument.

It's not a law, it's a technique. I'm a professional scientist. I use it every day as part of my working life and publish results because of it.

The wikipedia link:

"It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

From your link

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."

Under the paragraph starting:

"Occam's razor is often cited in stronger forms than Occam intended, as in the following statements. . ."

So let's ignore the debate about how a general principle has been advocated in many subtly different forms since the 14th C for use in many different scientific fields and get to the point that you are desperately trying to ignore.

There are two theories about your vision. I shall paste them here:

Quote:Theory 1)

The pattern of neural energy that makes up your consciousness persisted without the aid of a metabolising body and the brain ordinarily required in every day life and was sent to an alternative plane of existence by some unknown mechanism where you met non-corporeal sentient beings that judged you. One of these non-corporeal beings was over 2,000 years old and not subject to the second law of thermodynamics.

Theory 2)

You had a dream that felt more real than ordinary dreams because you were suffering from disturbed sleeping patterns

So applying all forms of Occam's razor from both links (rather than arguing about which one to use)

Theory 1 has many assumptions, theory 2 has none.
Theory 1 is more complicated, theory 2 is simple.
Theory 1 has many unnecessary entities unlike theory 2
Theory 2 excludes everything not perceived by the senses

Any interpretation of Occam's razor I have missed out? There won't be a single version that advocates Theory 1 over Theory 2 ...

You have chosen the explanation that is more complicated, requires many unfounded assumptions, relies upon things that cannot be perceived, and which contains many unnecessary entities over a simple explanation based only on things that we know are correct (it was a dream because you woke up in bed, you had disturbed sleep because you used to stop breathing in your sleep)

And to avoid acknowledging that you try to turn it into a debate about Occam's razor.
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07-02-2014, 06:04 AM
RE: My conversion...
All of which serves to illustrate that hell is an evil, bullshit doctrine that should not be forced on children.

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07-02-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: My conversion...
(06-02-2014 09:20 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 07:41 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I find it interesting that anyone with a "near death" or "dream experience" always seems to experience the god they already are familiar with. Ie, god is always a human. Always a man. Always a certain age range. And of a religion you are at least familiar with.
Laugh out load Maybe because that is what God is..

Quote:If you are a Christian, you see white Jesus. If you are Muslim, you see Mohammad, if you are Hindu, you see mithra.

Or it's your family members that greet you.
Then why did I see Jesus?

Quote:Why don't perfect strangers meet you- Someone you've never seen before.
did you not read the story? An angel met me. I didn't know him I though maybe He was Jesus. I saw Him and hit the floor.. there was no warm welcome. there was fear and trembling.

Quote:Why isn't god something beyond what we've imagined?
what did I imagine that you saw as so stereotypical? (aside from the angel in whom I did not know and did not give me a warm welcome)

Quote:Perhaps the answer is simply because we created him, and any dreams in which we have or experiences we have are part of stored memory or preconceived notions.
So again then why does my experience run contrary to what you have said? If I believed in a literal 'lake of fire.' Why was I thrown into a black pit of hell fire? I never understood what gnashing teeth were or why it was so bad.. I do know. There was so much I learned in my experience that I did not know or could confirm till much much later in my faith. that is why I share this story, and why I believe this was God communicating to me. Everything I experienced was well beyond me and what I knew at the time. This took what I knew and threw it completely out the window. If you read the OP carfully you will see this.

Quote:I'd be more inclined to give credence to these claims if there was at least ONE original thought in there.
If it were completely orginal this would be akin to scientology. I don't want your 'credence' if that is the price. I would much rather be faithful to what I experienced even if you 'feel' it has been done.

I read the OP. You saw white Jesus (who wasn't white btw) because that's what you were most familiar with. Maybe you weren't a Christian but you had gone to a Christian church and grew up around Christians.

The part you don't seem to be accepting is that you have seen these people waiting in line before. Perhaps in a Starbucks, or whatever but it was a snapshot your mind took without you even realizing it. Or you might have seen these people as actors or extras on TV.

Nothing you dreamed was original. Why was hell hot? Because you've been always told through the mythology that hell involves fire and heat. Why is hell always down, below, or subterranean? This evolved from Egyptian mythology of Set being the king of the underworld. As I said, the pit of tar is again, an abyss for which you get sucked DOWN. Not original at all.

I would believe you if the god you imagined was nothing you've ever known before. See a color that doesn't exist, or a place not from Hollywood or a conglomeration of places you've already been. For instance, every single "place" you described always seems to have gravity. Why? Because you don't know what it's like to live without gravity. (Not to be confused with dreams where you can fly, as you are the only thing that is weightless. The trees, grass, water, etc., doesn't float with you.) Or why you can breathe underwater...because you can't imagine drowning.

What you also don't seem to be getting is that an atheist doesn't believe in god. We don't turn our back on god anymore than we turn our back on Zeus or the boogie man. In order to turn your back on something, you have to believe it exists, which we don't.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-02-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: My conversion...
Drich - yes. I read your OP.

Here is the thing, when you dream, your mind cycles through information that stored in memory or attempts to work through fears and traumas.

During REM, activities you participated in during that day will get processed from short term memory to long term.

When I got mauled by a dog, all I wanted was to be able to tell the dog owners what they cost me and for them to be sorry and accept responsibility for what they did. I had constant dreams about her apologizing to me. I would dream that I've gotten her alone and am in the process of telling her that because of her, I needed surgery and lost my pregnancy. The dream always stopped before she said she was sorry. Now why is that?

Because I've never heard her voice say those words. My brain could not fathom it enough to make it happen.

Sometimes our dreams are our subconscious talking to us or trying to satisfy our needs. You subconsciously were fearful that rejecting your religion would have dangerous consequences. So it's no surprise you dreamed of hell.

Again, you saw white Jesus because that's what you are most familiar with. Rather ironic that the ONE religion out of the thousands that you happen to be familiar with also turns out to be the CORRECT religion according to your dream.

You just admitted that if you saw Allah you would still think it was the Christian god because of the *love* you felt. Do you understand what confirmation bias is? Really?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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