My dad's claims
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02-05-2016, 02:52 PM
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 09:18 AM)Alla Wrote:  
CosmicRaven Wrote:I'm not sure how to answer your questions.
I see.
CosmicRaven Wrote:He wants me to go to heaven BECAUSE he likes the idea of it I guess.
I think he means well BECAUSE he likes heaven and is trying to get me to be saved so I can go?
Could it be that your Dad wants you to go heaven BECAUSE he LOVES you?
Let me know what you think.

I think Paleophyte put it pretty well.
(02-05-2016 02:32 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  ... doing something to somebody that you love because you love them and because of your beliefs can still be tyrranical and more than a little annoying.
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02-05-2016, 03:05 PM
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 02:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SitaSky Wrote:to the gospel and be rewarded which is nice and all but it doesn't match up with what I was raised to believe. Even if that was true it's still not a good reason for me to believe now if I can be converted later after I die,
I am not trying to convince CosmicRaven to be converted to his/her Dad's faith/religion.
I want to help CosmicRaven's Dad to have peace over his child's choice.

This is one of the flaws of theistic beliefs, you may believe we get a chance to accept God after death but most Christians believe it has to be done during your life, before you know for sure God is real on faith alone, it has to be free will. If I meet God after death and he says "Sooo..I was real this whole time..do you want to accept me or be cast into outer darkness?" It's not a really a choice at that point, who would want to be punished for being reasonable and rejecting fairy tale stories and Gods, demons and angels during their life? If you know for sure Heaven is real why not accept it if it's right there in front of you?

I guess the only reasons Mormons want to believe it now is so they can get special treatment, they got their VIP bracelets on and can ascend to Godhood? Ok great but like I said most Christians don't believe that and want to save their children's souls right now before it's too late.

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02-05-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: My dad's claims
(29-04-2016 05:02 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Can you guys help me out? My dad ended up talking to me about my unbelief again.

-He said that he has proof of God.-My dad said that when he was a kid, he once prayed to wake up at midnight and it happened.-He has had dreams where God let's him know he's real. (Not reliable.)-When he used to smoke, he tried to quit on his own, but was having a hard time. The longest he went was 3 months. After he prayed, he had no desire to smoke. (FYI: this was before I was born.)-People have come just at the right time to help him with things like the car messing up.-He tried to bring up how people found Noah's Ark when I know thats a hoax.- I'm sure he thinks satan is trying to deceive me- He said that I shouldn't just stop believing in the Bible when I'm confused about something Stuff like that. I'm not good at talking and I get very nervous. Sometimes, things come down to faith, which isn't a convincing argument to me. I know he wants me to be 'saved,' but I can't make myself believe the God of the bible. I don't find the god of the Bible convincing. He wants me to ask God to let me know he's there. What do you guys think I should do? It's frustrating because the things I gave Yahweh credit for still happen to me now as an atheist. The good thing is that he said he wouldn't kick me out.

It isn't possible for a person to prove God is real. God can prove it to you through experiences that you know shouldn't have happened. I'm not talking about surviving accidents or dreams that synced with real life, but something extraordinary that you know wasn't coincidence or some false nerve firing. People don't usually just start believing in God because someone told them to either. God works on God's timing, we don't get to boss him around and tell him when and how to do stuff. And you are correct that the things he says are not proof to you. They are his experiences and not yours. Many of the things he spoke of are the kind of thing you would need to experience first hand for it to be proof to you. I know, I was there once. As for things happening as an atheist, God doesn't stop working because you don't believe. I've been there once too. I know many people, myself included, that have had a desire just removed like that. But, as mentioned earlier, it really is more significant to the person it happens to. I hope you do get whatever you need to be able to say, "God, if you exist, I can't believe this stuff and I need you to do something to make it happen."
You'd be surprised at how often that is how it starts. Tell your dad that it may be proof for him but that you need proof that fits you not him. I trust that God can do so without people having to bug you about it. I'm sorry you feel so uncomfortable in that situation. As a parent, I don't see how a true Christian would kick their child out for not believing. I would definitely let him know that it has caused a fear of getting kicked out. Give him the chance to fix that and apologize for making you feel that way.
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02-05-2016, 04:33 PM
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 05:02 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Can you guys help me out? My dad ended up talking to me about my unbelief again.

-He said that he has proof of God.-My dad said that when he was a kid, he once prayed to wake up at midnight and it happened.-He has had dreams where God let's him know he's real. (Not reliable.)-When he used to smoke, he tried to quit on his own, but was having a hard time. The longest he went was 3 months. After he prayed, he had no desire to smoke. (FYI: this was before I was born.)-People have come just at the right time to help him with things like the car messing up.-He tried to bring up how people found Noah's Ark when I know thats a hoax.- I'm sure he thinks satan is trying to deceive me- He said that I shouldn't just stop believing in the Bible when I'm confused about something Stuff like that. I'm not good at talking and I get very nervous. Sometimes, things come down to faith, which isn't a convincing argument to me. I know he wants me to be 'saved,' but I can't make myself believe the God of the bible. I don't find the god of the Bible convincing. He wants me to ask God to let me know he's there. What do you guys think I should do? It's frustrating because the things I gave Yahweh credit for still happen to me now as an atheist. The good thing is that he said he wouldn't kick me out.

It isn't possible for a person to prove God is real. God can prove it to you through experiences that you know shouldn't have happened. I'm not talking about surviving accidents or dreams that synced with real life, but something extraordinary that you know wasn't coincidence or some false nerve firing. People don't usually just start believing in God because someone told them to either. God works on God's timing, we don't get to boss him around and tell him when and how to do stuff. And you are correct that the things he says are not proof to you. They are his experiences and not yours. Many of the things he spoke of are the kind of thing you would need to experience first hand for it to be proof to you. I know, I was there once. As for things happening as an atheist, God doesn't stop working because you don't believe. I've been there once too. I know many people, myself included, that have had a desire just removed like that. But, as mentioned earlier, it really is more significant to the person it happens to. I hope you do get whatever you need to be able to say, "God, if you exist, I can't believe this stuff and I need you to do something to make it happen."
You'd be surprised at how often that is how it starts. Tell your dad that it may be proof for him but that you need proof that fits you not him. I trust that God can do so without people having to bug you about it. I'm sorry you feel so uncomfortable in that situation. As a parent, I don't see how a true Christian would kick their child out for not believing. I would definitely let him know that it has caused a fear of getting kicked out. Give him the chance to fix that and apologize for making you feel that way.

How could you ever know if an experience should not have happened? This leaves the door wide open for confirmation bias and confusing the imaginary with the real. We can all imagine that an experience has supernatural origins. In fact when it comes to the so called supernatural, we have no alternative but to imagine it, but when we are imagining, what we imagine is imaginary, not real. And you admit that a person can't prove these experiences were caused by a god, so what we are left with is the imagination and pretending that what we imagine is real.

In fact we can prove that the God of Christianity is not real, that the claims of theists can not be true. It is a trivial matter to do so, but people go on believing because they want to believe.

You are advising this person to appeal to the very thing that the existence of which is in question, in order to get confirmation by some mystical experience which the person will then have to attribute to this same God which he can only imagine, and you don't see any problems with this? Is this what passes for proper reasoning for a Christian?

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02-05-2016, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2016 04:58 PM by CosmicRaven.)
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 05:02 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  Can you guys help me out? My dad ended up talking to me about my unbelief again.

-He said that he has proof of God.-My dad said that when he was a kid, he once prayed to wake up at midnight and it happened.-He has had dreams where God let's him know he's real. (Not reliable.)-When he used to smoke, he tried to quit on his own, but was having a hard time. The longest he went was 3 months. After he prayed, he had no desire to smoke. (FYI: this was before I was born.)-People have come just at the right time to help him with things like the car messing up.-He tried to bring up how people found Noah's Ark when I know thats a hoax.- I'm sure he thinks satan is trying to deceive me- He said that I shouldn't just stop believing in the Bible when I'm confused about something Stuff like that. I'm not good at talking and I get very nervous. Sometimes, things come down to faith, which isn't a convincing argument to me. I know he wants me to be 'saved,' but I can't make myself believe the God of the bible. I don't find the god of the Bible convincing. He wants me to ask God to let me know he's there. What do you guys think I should do? It's frustrating because the things I gave Yahweh credit for still happen to me now as an atheist. The good thing is that he said he wouldn't kick me out.

It isn't possible for a person to prove God is real. God can prove it to you through experiences that you know shouldn't have happened. I'm not talking about surviving accidents or dreams that synced with real life, but something extraordinary that you know wasn't coincidence or some false nerve firing. People don't usually just start believing in God because someone told them to either. God works on God's timing, we don't get to boss him around and tell him when and how to do stuff. And you are correct that the things he says are not proof to you. They are his experiences and not yours. Many of the things he spoke of are the kind of thing you would need to experience first hand for it to be proof to you. I know, I was there once. As for things happening as an atheist, God doesn't stop working because you don't believe. I've been there once too. I know many people, myself included, that have had a desire just removed like that. But, as mentioned earlier, it really is more significant to the person it happens to. I hope you do get whatever you need to be able to say, "God, if you exist, I can't believe this stuff and I need you to do something to make it happen."
You'd be surprised at how often that is how it starts. Tell your dad that it may be proof for him but that you need proof that fits you not him. I trust that God can do so without people having to bug you about it. I'm sorry you feel so uncomfortable in that situation. As a parent, I don't see how a true Christian would kick their child out for not believing. I would definitely let him know that it has caused a fear of getting kicked out. Give him the chance to fix that and apologize for making you feel that way.

How would I know which god though? There are a lot of them.
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02-05-2016, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2016 04:58 PM by Alla.)
RE: My dad's claims
CosmicRaven, when your Dad approaches you next time with conversation about salvation, ask him this question:
"Dad, does your God give me agency to make my own moral choices?"
If your Dad says:" Yes". Ask him this:
"Why?"
" Dad , why does your God give me agency to make my moral choices?"
Let's find out what his answer would be.

CosmicRaven, do you believe that your Dad loves you? Do not answer to me. It would be great if YOU knew the answer.

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03-05-2016, 05:55 AM
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 03:05 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 02:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am not trying to convince CosmicRaven to be converted to his/her Dad's faith/religion.
I want to help CosmicRaven's Dad to have peace over his child's choice.

This is one of the flaws of theistic beliefs, you may believe we get a chance to accept God after death but most Christians believe it has to be done during your life, before you know for sure God is real on faith alone, it has to be free will. If I meet God after death and he says "Sooo..I was real this whole time..do you want to accept me or be cast into outer darkness?" It's not a really a choice at that point, who would want to be punished for being reasonable and rejecting fairy tale stories and Gods, demons and angels during their life? If you know for sure Heaven is real why not accept it if it's right there in front of you?

I guess the only reasons Mormons want to believe it now is so they can get special treatment, they got their VIP bracelets on and can ascend to Godhood? Ok great but like I said most Christians don't believe that and want to save their children's souls right now before it's too late.

Even if you died today and found out god is real and had a chance to accept, there is still a choice. I would have to say, "Are all the stories in the bible true?" "Or are they made up by people?". If the stories were all true, it would be a no brainer. I would not love or accept that god. If I am more moral than he/she/it is, then I would not be willing to spend eternity kissing little Anthony Freemont's ass, or more appropriately only thinking good thoughts. After all, the bible may be a test to see who is willing to throw away their morals to follow an evil book.
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03-05-2016, 07:00 AM
RE: My dad's claims
(03-05-2016 05:55 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 03:05 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  This is one of the flaws of theistic beliefs, you may believe we get a chance to accept God after death but most Christians believe it has to be done during your life, before you know for sure God is real on faith alone, it has to be free will. If I meet God after death and he says "Sooo..I was real this whole time..do you want to accept me or be cast into outer darkness?" It's not a really a choice at that point, who would want to be punished for being reasonable and rejecting fairy tale stories and Gods, demons and angels during their life? If you know for sure Heaven is real why not accept it if it's right there in front of you?

I guess the only reasons Mormons want to believe it now is so they can get special treatment, they got their VIP bracelets on and can ascend to Godhood? Ok great but like I said most Christians don't believe that and want to save their children's souls right now before it's too late.

Even if you died today and found out god is real and had a chance to accept, there is still a choice. I would have to say, "Are all the stories in the bible true?" "Or are they made up by people?". If the stories were all true, it would be a no brainer. I would not love or accept that god. If I am more moral than he/she/it is, then I would not be willing to spend eternity kissing little Anthony Freemont's ass, or more appropriately only thinking good thoughts. After all, the bible may be a test to see who is willing to throw away their morals to follow an evil book.

i would rather kiss ass than suffer for eternity. why would you choose otherwise? pride? that would be little comfort as satan pours fire ants into your pee hole forever. or whatever people think goes on in hell.
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03-05-2016, 08:02 AM
RE: My dad's claims
(03-05-2016 07:00 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  
(03-05-2016 05:55 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Even if you died today and found out god is real and had a chance to accept, there is still a choice. I would have to say, "Are all the stories in the bible true?" "Or are they made up by people?". If the stories were all true, it would be a no brainer. I would not love or accept that god. If I am more moral than he/she/it is, then I would not be willing to spend eternity kissing little Anthony Freemont's ass, or more appropriately only thinking good thoughts. After all, the bible may be a test to see who is willing to throw away their morals to follow an evil book.

i would rather kiss ass than suffer for eternity. why would you choose otherwise? pride? that would be little comfort as satan pours fire ants into your pee hole forever. or whatever people think goes on in hell.

I guess you never watched the Twilight Zone? The character in one of the episodes Anthony Freemont is a sick sadistic bastard that has the powers of god. He hears your thoughts and you better only think nice things about him, especially when he does something cruel. If not, he will turn you into whatever he wants or wish you away to the cornfield (hell). I the god of the bible exists, it is exactly how I picture heaven. I would rather go to hell thanks.
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03-05-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: My dad's claims
(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  .... but something extraordinary that you know wasn't coincidence or some false nerve firing.
How do you determine something was not coincidence or a false nerve firing?

(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  Many of the things he spoke of are the kind of thing you would need to experience first hand for it to be proof to you.

First hand experience is a bad way and not necessary to get confirmation of someting, particulary of something extraordinary or counter intuitive, because our senses fool us all the time.
Thats why we figured out methodologies to find out what and how something can be (dis)proven. In order to be able to believe something i dont have to experience it first hand. Its enough to have someone else make the experiment, conducted with a self correcting methodology which i in return accept as applicable.

(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  God doesn't stop working because you don't believe
And he doesnt start to exist because you do believe.

(02-05-2016 03:54 PM)PsychTheist Wrote:  I don't see how a true Christian would kick their child out for not believing
No, true christians would rather stone their child for not obeying, right?

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