My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
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09-06-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
No means no, and nobody stuttered. If they don't like it, too bad. They can learn to like it.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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09-06-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Say No to Christees.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-06-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Your daughter's old enough to make the decision that she doesn't want to go. I would back her up. I wouldn't get into a big thing with the grandparents, just simply say, she doesn't want to go, so she won't be. No need to give reasons, but probably a need to draw a line here, or else they are could start with this relatively small thing and keep going for more.
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09-06-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
It's your daughter's call.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-06-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Update:

Well I turned my phone back on, and low and behold they called again. I told them simply "She says she doesn't want to go. If she changes her mind, we'll let you know." Of course they responded by suggesting I don't take her to church enough. (I think zero times a year is plenty) Part of me wanted to say "Maybe you should pray she changes her mind." after that. I thought it, but avoided saying it. I also thought about saying that she goes to church as often as she likes (which is never. I asked her the first week she came to live with us if she wanted to go, and she seemed surprised I was giving her a choice. She knows that I'll take her to church if she wants to go, even though I've never been to church myself)

My daughter likes her grandparents, but she hates staying with them. She says they make her take bible quizzes and listen to preachers on television. I think she's an atheist herself, and i don't think I played a big part in that at all.

My wife says that if they threaten to seek custody, to remind them that we've been reasonable about arranging visitation, but if they seek custody we would be forced to do what we had to in order to remove conflict from her life. We both think it's best to avoid going to court, even if it's likely we would win.
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09-06-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  Right off the bat I'm against it for a couple of reasons: #1. I think there's better things to learn about than "Jesus". Seems like a total waste of time. and #2. I don't want to lose time with my daughter. I mean I just found out about her last year, and she's already 11, almost 12.
Hmmm, I'm not sure why, all of a sudden you are in the picture here? How come you had no say for 11 to 12 years, but now you think that you have a say?
Seems complex, and I don't know enough to form an opinion.

(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  I told them that I'd have to talk to my wife about it. (They don't know we're atheists. It's never really come up. I don't think they'd fight me for custody, but I'm a little worried they could if they found out we're atheists given their Christianity.)
I'm just not understanding why the Grandparent's could have custody. Did your wife give up her daughter to the grandparents at some point? Perhaps it was a young pregnancy or something?
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  I asked my daughter if she wanted to go. I mean ultimately I wanted the decision to be up to her. My wife agreed. I mean as much as I didn't want her to go, if she wanted to go I wasn't going to stop her. She said she didn't want to go.
Well, if she doesn't want to go and neither you or your wife want her to go then why are you accomodating the grandparents? I don't get it.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  As far as I can tell, she doesn't believe in God anymore. Of course I don't tell her grandparents this.
I don't see why not.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  They'd probably just see it as her being angry at god because her mom died.
OK, seems you had a kid with someone, didn't know about the kid (the pregnancy), she died but the kid has been raised by her grandparents). Not sure why the GPs have contacted you. Do they want you to take over custody or have shared custody, or simply be part of her life, or perhaps financially help out?
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  Anyway, I call them back to tell them that she said she doesn't want to go, but that we'd try to find a good time for her to spend with them (As my wife said, NOT during that week, because they'd probably send her against her will). They didn't want to accept that, so they asked to speak to her. She told them that she didn't want to go. They tried to bribe her. She still didn't want to go.
OK, fine.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  Then they call me back this morning, telling me that I need to send her because it's important for her to get saved, and know Jesus. "Sometimes parents have to make kids do things they don't want to in order to save them." Apparently her mother sent her to this vacation bible school (my daughter says it was only because it's free daycare and her parents wouldn't stop pestering her about it).
But mother is no longer in the picture right?
Do you have legal custody of the kid? Does she live with you now?
Grandparents can't control her now, they aren't the legal guardians. They need to respect your authority.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  I'm not sure how--or even if I can--to get them to stop pushing this.
They have no power, they can nag, but that's about it. If you have legal custody, then tell them that you aren't Christians and you do not support forcing your daughter down this path.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  My daughter doesn't want to go. Honestly I don't think she should go. Especially not against her will. They don't seem to be taking no for an answer.
What can they do? Nothing, all they can do is nag you. You don't have to do what they tell you. They are at your mercy. If worst comes to worst, cut ties with them.
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  This hasn't been a problem before. They're really set on this. (They're very religious people. They even bought her this hideous bible for girls that makes me want to puke. You should see it, it's awful. I mean you'd think at least they'd take out all the rampant sexism, but nope.) They're nice people outside their faith, but they consider it VERY important. I told them that I wasn't going to send her if she didn't want to go, and that ultimately it's up to her. Then they bribed me! They have this idea in their head, and I don't think they're going to drop it. They keep bringing up how I didn't let her go to Christmas Mass with them. Right now I've got my phone off, hoping they'll get the message. I'm not sure they will though.
Distance yourself from them. Distance your daughter from them. Make them realise it is a privilege for them to interact with their grand daughter. Cut off all ties for a few months, then approach them, tell them you want them to be part of her life but their are certain boundaries. Tell them you are not going to force Christianity onto your daughter and they are not going to force it on her either. If they can accept this, they can have a continued relationship with her.
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09-06-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Quote: My daughter doesn't want to go.

And there is your answer. Tell them she doesn't want to go and you don't think it is worth fighting about.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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09-06-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Quote: My daughter doesn't want to go.

Tell them what I told my wife: if they're old enough to be baptized you are acknowledging they are old enough to say no. It's pretty hard to argue that point

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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09-06-2016, 06:42 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Quote:They even bought her this hideous bible for girls that makes me want to puke.

That's horrific.

The simple answer is that you've said "No!" and she's said "No!". Repeatedly. Despite bribery. They don't get a say, so the answer is "No!"

The tricky bit is that you're concerned that they'll cause legal problems. At her age I doubt that they have a leg to stand on but you sound like you don't want legal problems and some judges are bigots. If that's a real concern then:

(1) Make sure that your daughter knows that you have her back. That you will support her decision no matter what it is.

(2) Explain the problem to her. She sounds like she's bright and quite possibly has even less truck with religion than you do. Make sure that she understands that you don't want her to go just as much as she doesn't want to go but that her grandparents might try to stir up legal difficulties if she doesn't. If her answer is still "No!" then that's it, but if she's willing to compromise to keep the peace then there are a few options.

(3) Look up the details on the camp in question. There are church Camps and then there are Church camps. Given the grandparents attitudes I would suspect the latter but you might be pleasantly surprised. Check the reviews to see what people loved about it. Was it the camping or the fellowship with Gaw-awd? Check to make sure it isn't the sort of place that might resort to forcible conversion tactics. That's unlikely, but given the grandparent's "for her own good" zeal it might be a concern.

Options the two of you might want to consider:

- Enroll her in a conflicting camp. Sorry guys, she's in soccer camp that week. Don't lie about it. That'll backfire. Enroll her in an actual conflict. It's the least attractive option for them and could run afowl of alternate weeks for church camps since they seem determined. It's also pretty obvious what you've done.

- Sit down and pick out a church camp with her. I loved church camp, even long after I figured out I didn't believe. That's because I was in a very liberal church that had a camp that was about camping and fun and threw in a smattering of religion for a grand total of 15 minutes daily. Find one of those and your daughter will have a blast for a week. Grandparents could still try and insist on their camp but you've neatly undermined their position.

- Make sure that your daughter understands what you're doing with this one and that she's good with it. Both of you play the gormless idiots, soften your stance and let them bribe you into sending her to see them on that week. They'll be prayin for this all night so it won't be a huge surprise. Get them to promise both of you that they won't try and pack her off to camp but let her know that you think there are good odds that they might. If you're wrong then she spends a week with her grandparents, which likely includes some tedious sermonizing. If you're right then they lose all moral high ground with you, your daughter and the courts.

I wouldn't worry too much about the preachiness. I can think of no better way to create an atheist than by subjecting an unwilling 12 year old to tedious sermonizing. She'll have a week of being preached at assuming she can't ask enough inconvenient questions to get her kicked out. At the end of it she'll have a much finer understanding of certain people and her grandparents will be neutralized. And you may owe her a pony.

Personally I'd go with the second option but that's partly because I enjoyed church camp so much that I'd go back now if they asked me to come help.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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09-06-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 06:42 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Options the two of you might want to consider:

- Enroll her in a conflicting camp. Sorry guys, she's in soccer camp that week. Don't lie about it. That'll backfire. Enroll her in an actual conflict. It's the least attractive option for them and could run afowl of alternate weeks for church camps since they seem determined. It's also pretty obvious what you've done.

- Sit down and pick out a church camp with her. I loved church camp, even long after I figured out I didn't believe. That's because I was in a very liberal church that had a camp that was about camping and fun and threw in a smattering of religion for a grand total of 15 minutes daily. Find one of those and your daughter will have a blast for a week. Grandparents could still try and insist on their camp but you've neatly undermined their position.

- Make sure that your daughter understands what you're doing with this one and that she's good with it.
Gotta say, I really hate these suggestions.
You are showing your daughter a very weak approach to life.
One were you have to hide and cower and go to great lengths to pander to the whims of others.

Personally, I'd say as adults and parents, you could lead by example, show your girl that you have to live life for yourself. It is upto others to accept you for who you are and not for you to live a lie to make others happy.
Don't avoid the issue, don't confuse it. Takle it head on. Be open and honest. Otherwise you are teaching your kid a terrible coward's lesson.
Tell the grand parents that it's her decision and she has said no. No means No!. Tell them that you won't force her towards Jesus. That forcing her will make her resentful and rebelious like if a horse is on your foot and you push, the horse will push back and even more weight will be on your foot.
IF she comes to Jesus herself then it will be a stronger bond. Tell the grandparents they just need to have faith in the granddaughter and trust her judgement, life has many twists and turns and who knows how it will eventually turn out.
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