My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
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09-06-2016, 07:15 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
My girls attended VBS when we lived on Ft. Jackson. Neither had ever been to church with me though they had attended when staying with friends. We talked some about what people believe but they weren't brought up with religion...they just knew that others around them were religious or from religious families.

They went to VBS because they had fun. It was like mini day camp. They were with their classmates, went swimming, played games, made crafts, and heard some Bible stories. They pretty much ignored the Bible stuff and just enjoyed the fun stuff.

I never told my kids what to believe or not to believe. I allowed them to attend any church service they wanted. My son even went to a Christian music concert and a tent revival with one of his friends. (The tent revival freaked him out and he was done with religion of any sort after that, he was about 11.) I let them make their own decisions. Two of the three are atheist...one follows Pascal's Wager but isn't really buying into the whole story.

But all along it was their choice.

As for your child's grandparents...they need to back off. I have said before that one thing I know about having grandchildren is that they aren't mine to raise. I raised their parents...now it's their job.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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09-06-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 07:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 06:42 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Options the two of you might want to consider:

- Enroll her in a conflicting camp. Sorry guys, she's in soccer camp that week. Don't lie about it. That'll backfire. Enroll her in an actual conflict. It's the least attractive option for them and could run afowl of alternate weeks for church camps since they seem determined. It's also pretty obvious what you've done.

- Sit down and pick out a church camp with her. I loved church camp, even long after I figured out I didn't believe. That's because I was in a very liberal church that had a camp that was about camping and fun and threw in a smattering of religion for a grand total of 15 minutes daily. Find one of those and your daughter will have a blast for a week. Grandparents could still try and insist on their camp but you've neatly undermined their position.

- Make sure that your daughter understands what you're doing with this one and that she's good with it.
Gotta say, I really hate these suggestions.
You are showing your daughter a very weak approach to life.
One were you have to hide and cower and go to great lengths to pander to the whims of others.

Personally, I'd say as adults and parents, you could lead by example, show your girl that you have to live life for yourself. It is upto others to accept you for who you are and not for you to live a lie to make others happy.
Don't avoid the issue, don't confuse it. Takle it head on. Be open and honest. Otherwise you are teaching your kid a terrible coward's lesson.
Tell the grand parents that it's her decision and she has said no. No means No!

I'm not fond of them myself. In an ideal world it's a simple case where the only two people who should have any say whatsoever have said "No!" If the grandparents don't like that then it's just too damned bad.

We don't live in an ideal world and it sounds like there are complicating circumstances that could be used to pull this into court. I doubt there are many judges out there who'd separate a 12 year old from her only competent parent against her objections solely on account of religion that she doesn't embrace but we don't know all the details.

I agee whole-heartedly that Ash should be open and honest with his daughter. He's already been open and honest with the grandparents and has been repaid with nagging, bribery and more nagging. It should be patently obvious that the direct approach has been used and exhausted at this point.

And it isn't a lesson in cowardice to teach your child that compromise can be better than walking away empty-handed. This isn't about pleasing the grandparents. Fuck them and their backward beliefs. This is about Ash and his daughter getting what they want as much as they can.

If a custody battle is a serious concern then Ash may need better alternatives than simply telling the grandparents to bugger off.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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09-06-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
Back when I volunteered for church activities, my wife and I asked how we could get more people to volunteer. We were told, "Guilt is good". I didn't like that, but my wife and I did share a laugh over it, later. I don't like getting guilted into anything.

Ash, I think you are on the right track. Just stand firm, and I hope the GPs don't have a legal leg to stand on.
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09-06-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 08:02 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  And it isn't a lesson in cowardice to teach your child that compromise can be better than walking away empty-handed. This isn't about pleasing the grandparents. Fuck them and their backward beliefs. This is about Ash and his daughter getting what they want as much as they can.
Perhaps he could sit down with the daughter and she migh have something to bring to the table. Rather than dad and gramps deciding her future for her.
As far as I see, gramps has no leverage. Regarding negotiation, if the other person has no leverage then don't negotiate.

Booking other things at the same time is really cowardice and avoidance, it isn't compromise. I'm sure you haven't sat down with gramps and together decided soccer rather than Christian camp.
Forcing your kid to go to church camp isn't compromise. It's giving gramps what gramps wants but possibly a different flavour that what gramps wants. What is it that the father and daughter get in return? This isn't negotiations, this isn't compromise. This is being ridiculous in a feeble attempt to avoid having an on point discussion and confronting the issue at hand.
I really don't understand this approach at all.

If you really want to negotiate, get around the table, father, daughter, granma, granpa. And discuss. Be open and honest. Tell granma and granpa that neither father nor daughter are interested in Jesus or Christianity. Tell them they have no interest at all in going to church or religious camp. Tell them that father and daughter have other things they would rather do with their time.
If granma and granpa say that they will go to court over custody if daughter doesn't go to church camp then at least you have your cards on the table. Then negotiate from there.
This beating around the bush stuff, avoiding discussion, avoiding negotiation is really weird. It's just time wasting and will end up frustrating everyone. No-one likes getting the run around, granma and granpa will get even more angry. Treat them with some respect, discuss the topic head on.
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09-06-2016, 09:46 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
I apologise in advance if you think I made this comment ill-advisedly Ash, but in my honest opinion, you're making the proverbial mountain out of a molehill with all this. You're also over-thinking it. You've told the grandparents that neither you or your daughter wishes her to attend this religious camp, and that should be the end of it.

If the grandparents choose to take it beyond both your wishes, then they should expect to bear the brunt of whatever follows, no matter how personally offensive to their joint frames of mind it is. And unless there's some peculiar family law legislation in place in the US that I'm ignorant of, then there's no way they'd ever get sole custody of your daughter. Your fears of this are unfounded. In Australia (at least) religiosity—or a lack thereof—is never grounds for a successful custody claim.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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09-06-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
I'd like to avoid a court case because:

#1. I don't want my daughter to have to go through that.

and

#2. I'm not exactly sure what their legal standing is. Her mom named her parents as their legal guardian. I wasn't in her life for the first ten years. I didn't even know she existed. They thought her father was some other guy. I managed to get custody--and at the time they didn't fight me on it. I'd have to ask my lawyer about it. She actually lived with them for a time after her mom died. My wife says it helps that she's lived with us for almost a year now. I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on if they didn't have the will.

That said, I'm not negotiating with them on this. This is not their decision. I'm not going to ask my daughter to go to this school if she doesn't want to. Even if it is to avoid a court battle. To be honest they need to learn to butt out. I don't feel I need to explain her decision to them either. She doesn't want to go, if that's not enough for them then they're going to have to deal with it. They're testing my patience by pushing this. I've been very fair with making sure they get time to spend with her. I'm doing my best not to be rude with them. If they don't drop it, I'm worried I might stop giving them the common courtesy that I try to extend all family membesr, and then I'd really tell them off. Which probably wouldn't be good if there WERE a court case, and is probably exactly what they want. Also I'd really hate for my daughter to hear repeated some of the things I'd really LIKE to say to them.
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10-06-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 11:13 PM)Ash Wrote:  I'd like to avoid a court case because:

#1. I don't want my daughter to have to go through that.
A wise decision Ash.

Quote:#2. I'm not exactly sure what their legal standing is. Her mom named her parents as their legal guardian. I wasn't in her life for the first ten years. I didn't even know she existed... I managed to get custody—and at the time they didn't fight me on it.
End of story. If you were granted legal custody of her by a court of law, then that's it. Unless you were granted joint custody with her grandparents (???) then the ball is totally in your court as far as her maintenance and upbringing is concerned from a legal perspective. Although, having said that, if you were to deny them periodic, limited access to her, then you could upset things.

Quote:That said, I'm not negotiating with them on this. This is not their decision. I'm not going to ask my daughter to go to this school if she doesn't want to.
Again, a wise decision. Stick with it.

Quote:Even if it is to avoid a court battle.
Catastrophising with this Ash. Relax. (Catastrophising occurs when we look to the future and anticipate all the things that could potentially go wrong. We then create a reality around those thoughts, EG: "It’s certain to all go wrong for me because…”. And if we believe something will go wrong, we often inadvertently help it go wrong.)

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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10-06-2016, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 12:25 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
You need to establish your boundaries otherwise they will keep pushing. And the more you try to explain or reason with them the more they will think that there is a chance that they can win you over. It's in everybody's interests to tell them that the answer is no and that's that.

Maybe explain to your daughter your fears. She's old enough now to understand and she needs to know that you are doing everything you can for her. If you send her off to Bible camp when she has asked you not to then from her perspective she cannot rely on you.
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10-06-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  Yesterday, my oldest daughter's grandparents (on her mother's side obviously) said that they wanted her to come and stay with them for a week and go to vacation bible school. They didn't ask last year (which was the first year I even knew she existed), but they're asking this year.

Right off the bat I'm against it for a couple of reasons: #1. I think there's better things to learn about than "Jesus". Seems like a total waste of time. and #2. I don't want to lose time with my daughter. I mean I just found out about her last year, and she's already 11, almost 12.

I told them that I'd have to talk to my wife about it. (They don't know we're atheists. It's never really come up. I don't think they'd fight me for custody, but I'm a little worried they could if they found out we're atheists given their Christianity.)

I asked my daughter if she wanted to go. I mean ultimately I wanted the decision to be up to her. My wife agreed. I mean as much as I didn't want her to go, if she wanted to go I wasn't going to stop her. She said she didn't want to go. As far as I can tell, she doesn't believe in God anymore. Of course I don't tell her grandparents this. They'd probably just see it as her being angry at god because her mom died. Anyway, I call them back to tell them that she said she doesn't want to go, but that we'd try to find a good time for her to spend with them (As my wife said, NOT during that week, because they'd probably send her against her will). They didn't want to accept that, so they asked to speak to her. She told them that she didn't want to go. They tried to bribe her. She still didn't want to go.

Then they call me back this morning, telling me that I need to send her because it's important for her to get saved, and know Jesus. "Sometimes parents have to make kids do things they don't want to in order to save them." Apparently her mother sent her to this vacation bible school (my daughter says it was only because it's free daycare and her parents wouldn't stop pestering her about it).

I'm not sure how--or even if I can--to get them to stop pushing this. My daughter doesn't want to go. Honestly I don't think she should go. Especially not against her will. They don't seem to be taking no for an answer. This hasn't been a problem before. They're really set on this. (They're very religious people. They even bought her this hideous bible for girls that makes me want to puke. You should see it, it's awful. I mean you'd think at least they'd take out all the rampant sexism, but nope.) They're nice people outside their faith, but they consider it VERY important. I told them that I wasn't going to send her if she didn't want to go, and that ultimately it's up to her. Then they bribed me! They have this idea in their head, and I don't think they're going to drop it. They keep bringing up how I didn't let her go to Christmas Mass with them. Right now I've got my phone off, hoping they'll get the message. I'm not sure they will though.
Regardless of your position or theirs; you shouldn't leave the decision to a child. They are a child.

Though you may find the teachings of Jesus to be wrong somehow, without bias, one can see those specific teachings as beneficial to peace and as such, quality of life for all involved.

I am not condoning the wrongful acts of man under the guise of religion. I am not condoning what you consider rampant sexism either.

The girl should be free to come to her own conclusions through maturity and reasoned thought.

This can't happen at an early age generally, and may not happen at all if bias is let in and then converted into personal "truth".

Bias and hypocrisy are equally a potentiality in the theist and atheist.

The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself.

Ultimately just an opinion I suppose.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
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10-06-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Regardless of your position or theirs; you shouldn't leave the decision to a child. They are a child.
At what point would you let your child do their own thing? Disgusting geezer.

Quote:Though you may find the teachings of Jesus to be wrong somehow, without bias, one can see those specific teachings as beneficial to peace and as such, quality of life for all involved.
Teachings of Jesus can be studied without Christian camp.

Quote:Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Stop wanking in public. It's not socially acceptable.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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