My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
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10-06-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:14 AM)Ash Wrote:  .... "Jesus died for you, don't you think you can go to camp for him for one week?" and "Don't you want to go to heaven when you die, so you can see your mom?" ...
...

Wow. That's very interesting language. So persuasive. Acceptance you can't or don't want to refuse. Guilt and shame: that will certainly stick to your ribs ... for years.

Stick to your guns, Ash. If she was my kid, I'd consider such manipulative talk to be a threat to her emotional development.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-06-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The girl should be free to come to her own conclusions through maturity and reasoned thought.
Teach the kid self confidence. Teach her critical thinking and the need for supporting evidence.
If someone says "don't you want to go to heaven to see mum again?" then her thoughts ought to be that there is no evidence suppoting a claim of heaven or afterlife. She should quickly come to the conclusion it is merely vacuous wishful thinking.

(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  This can't happen at an early age generally, and may not happen at all if bias is let in and then converted into personal "truth".
She should not be seeking "truth" she needs to learn to live her life, make her decisions. Be comfortable making mistakes and moving on rather than trying to be perfect. She needs to learn to be self sufficient and independant. The churches want her to have a dependant relationship with them. They want her money, they want her kids money, they want her grandchildren's money.


(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Bias and hypocrisy are equally a potentiality in the theist and atheist.
So she needs to learn to be skeptical, learn what techniques the scientific method goes to in order to overcome biases.

Give her the tools to be independant, to avoid being conned. Have faith in her, she will turn out fine.
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10-06-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:14 AM)Ash Wrote:  Well they called again this morning. Not me, but her this time. My daughter had it on speaker, so I was able to hear the whole thing. They tried guilting her into it. "Jesus died for you, don't you think you can go to camp for him for one week?" and "Don't you want to go to heaven when you die, so you can see your mom?" I wanted to snap.
What the floop? Seriously, that kind of crap is unacceptable, and I'm coming at this from the point of view of a former Baptist and now Catholic; trust me, got the guilt thing down pat by this point in my life, and those questions are just revolting. Nothing, nothing at all, should give them the right to try and use a passed away parent as ammunition against a child. It's not just emotionally manipulative, it's borderline (if not over the line) emotionally abusive as an attempted control mechanism.

As for "Jesus died for you, don't you think you can go to camp for him for one week"...again manipulative. Pretty sure Jesus would say to let your daughter make her own decision, and the high pressure "sales tactics" for lack of a better term are pushing her away, not leading her to Him. They're essentially standing in the path of allowing the children to come unto Him and such by doing so (which may be a point to bring up if it comes to theological dithering?). Not every church camp is like Jesus Camp; mine had sermons and singing and high pressure altar calls, but it also had team sports, a wilderness obstacle course, etc. That said, it should still be your daughter's decision to go, and they should respect it, and then if they feel led to do so, they can pray about it.

Hoping it all turns out okay. So far from the other five and a half pages, it seems like you're handling this really well. (Though wouldn't blame you for snapping at them after they pulled that crap.)

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10-06-2016, 03:29 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 03:51 PM by Paleophyte.)
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(09-06-2016 08:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Perhaps he could sit down with the daughter and she migh have something to bring to the table. Rather than dad and gramps deciding her future for her.

That was my first and second points. You seem to have missed those and jumped straight to the alternatives. Somewhat moot now.

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10-06-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:14 AM)Ash Wrote:  Well they called again this morning. Not me, but her this time. My daughter had it on speaker, so I was able to hear the whole thing. They tried guilting her into it. "Jesus died for you, don't you think you can go to camp for him for one week?" and "Don't you want to go to heaven when you die, so you can see your mom?" I wanted to snap. I think my daughter mostly ignored it, and quickly made an excuse to hang up. I'm sure it bothered her a little though, and that was their intent. I'm sure they're not finished yet. I'm going to call them later and tell them that I heard about what they said, and that I find it highly inappropriate to guilt a child into doing something they don't want to do. I'd have called them right back as soon as my daughter hung up if we didn't have to get to school. Of course i"d have probably said something I regretted if I did. I tried calling earlier, but they didn't pick up.

Also, I think a child can make several decisions for themselves. It's good to learn about religion--not just one, but many faiths. But I think it should be for the child to decide if they want to participate in those faiths or not. (without pressure from family members)

That's horrific. They've gone well beyond merely crossing the parent-child line, which is bad enough. That sort of emotional manipulation isn't something that anybody should expose a child to, much less somebody who supposedly loves them. If this were my child their number would now be blocked on her phone. They'd spend a very long time saying anything they wanted to say through me.

You are correct that this will have bothered her, and possibly more than a little. It will depend on the relationship that she has with them. My mother tried this with me, though for completely different reasons. It backfired but it's still a very hard lesson to learn that somebody you love and who is supposed to love you will resort to deliberate harm for their own selfish desires. Many big hugs are in order.

Ignore my previous suggestions regarding compromise. I was unaware of what you were dealing with.

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10-06-2016, 04:07 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:14 AM)Ash Wrote:  Well they called again this morning. Not me, but her this time. My daughter had it on speaker, so I was able to hear the whole thing. They tried guilting her into it. "Jesus died for you, don't you think you can go to camp for him for one week?" and "Don't you want to go to heaven when you die, so you can see your mom?" I wanted to snap. I think my daughter mostly ignored it, and quickly made an excuse to hang up. I'm sure it bothered her a little though, and that was their intent. I'm sure they're not finished yet. I'm going to call them later and tell them that I heard about what they said, and that I find it highly inappropriate to guilt a child into doing something they don't want to do. I'd have called them right back as soon as my daughter hung up if we didn't have to get to school. Of course i"d have probably said something I regretted if I did. I tried calling earlier, but they didn't pick up.

Also, I think a child can make several decisions for themselves. It's good to learn about religion--not just one, but many faiths. But I think it should be for the child to decide if they want to participate in those faiths or not. (without pressure from family members)

That would have been enough for me to have ended all contact with them. Drinking Beverage

What Chas said. These people have no respect for her or you. I know from their perspective they are trying to do something good, but manipulating and scaring a child is disgusting.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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10-06-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 08:26 AM)Ash Wrote:  Yesterday, my oldest daughter's grandparents (on her mother's side obviously) said that they wanted her to come and stay with them for a week and go to vacation bible school. They didn't ask last year (which was the first year I even knew she existed), but they're asking this year.

Right off the bat I'm against it for a couple of reasons: #1. I think there's better things to learn about than "Jesus". Seems like a total waste of time. and #2. I don't want to lose time with my daughter. I mean I just found out about her last year, and she's already 11, almost 12.

I told them that I'd have to talk to my wife about it. (They don't know we're atheists. It's never really come up. I don't think they'd fight me for custody, but I'm a little worried they could if they found out we're atheists given their Christianity.)

I asked my daughter if she wanted to go. I mean ultimately I wanted the decision to be up to her. My wife agreed. I mean as much as I didn't want her to go, if she wanted to go I wasn't going to stop her. She said she didn't want to go. As far as I can tell, she doesn't believe in God anymore. Of course I don't tell her grandparents this. They'd probably just see it as her being angry at god because her mom died. Anyway, I call them back to tell them that she said she doesn't want to go, but that we'd try to find a good time for her to spend with them (As my wife said, NOT during that week, because they'd probably send her against her will). They didn't want to accept that, so they asked to speak to her. She told them that she didn't want to go. They tried to bribe her. She still didn't want to go.

Then they call me back this morning, telling me that I need to send her because it's important for her to get saved, and know Jesus. "Sometimes parents have to make kids do things they don't want to in order to save them." Apparently her mother sent her to this vacation bible school (my daughter says it was only because it's free daycare and her parents wouldn't stop pestering her about it).

I'm not sure how--or even if I can--to get them to stop pushing this. My daughter doesn't want to go. Honestly I don't think she should go. Especially not against her will. They don't seem to be taking no for an answer. This hasn't been a problem before. They're really set on this. (They're very religious people. They even bought her this hideous bible for girls that makes me want to puke. You should see it, it's awful. I mean you'd think at least they'd take out all the rampant sexism, but nope.) They're nice people outside their faith, but they consider it VERY important. I told them that I wasn't going to send her if she didn't want to go, and that ultimately it's up to her. Then they bribed me! They have this idea in their head, and I don't think they're going to drop it. They keep bringing up how I didn't let her go to Christmas Mass with them. Right now I've got my phone off, hoping they'll get the message. I'm not sure they will though.
Regardless of your position or theirs; you shouldn't leave the decision to a child. They are a child.

Though you may find the teachings of Jesus to be wrong somehow, without bias, one can see those specific teachings as beneficial to peace and as such, quality of life for all involved.

I am not condoning the wrongful acts of man under the guise of religion. I am not condoning what you consider rampant sexism either.

The girl should be free to come to her own conclusions through maturity and reasoned thought.

This can't happen at an early age generally, and may not happen at all if bias is let in and then converted into personal "truth".

Bias and hypocrisy are equally a potentiality in the theist and atheist.

The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself.

Ultimately just an opinion I suppose.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Assumption- Jesus existed.

Assumption- The girl can't reason for herself.

Assumption- bias is somehow introduced. The girl seems to have to come to this conclusion despite having spent most of her formative years at the hands of the grandparents.

Assumption- "The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself."

I'd suggest that your contribution to this thread is semantically null, and should never have been posted. Your posts here are assumptive and presumptive of your religious bent. This is not the place for an atheist/theist discussion. Ever. You presume WAY too much.
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10-06-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:52 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 01:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Regardless of your position or theirs; you shouldn't leave the decision to a child. They are a child.

Though you may find the teachings of Jesus to be wrong somehow, without bias, one can see those specific teachings as beneficial to peace and as such, quality of life for all involved.

I am not condoning the wrongful acts of man under the guise of religion. I am not condoning what you consider rampant sexism either.

The girl should be free to come to her own conclusions through maturity and reasoned thought.

This can't happen at an early age generally, and may not happen at all if bias is let in and then converted into personal "truth".

Bias and hypocrisy are equally a potentiality in the theist and atheist.

The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself.

Ultimately just an opinion I suppose.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Assumption- Jesus existed.

Assumption- The girl can't reason for herself.

Assumption- bias is somehow introduced. The girl seems to have to come to this conclusion despite having spent most of her formative years at the hands of the grandparents.

Assumption- "The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself."

I'd suggest that your contribution to this thread is semantically null, and should never have been posted. Your posts here are assumptive and presumptive of your religious bent. This is not the place for an atheist/theist discussion. Ever. You presume WAY too much.
Everyone is intended entitled to an opinion I suppose, regardless of how ill informed it may be.

I agree that here in this thread is not the place to discuss such, and wasn't.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
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10-06-2016, 10:06 PM (This post was last modified: 11-06-2016 05:39 PM by Fireball.)
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
(10-06-2016 08:59 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:52 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Assumption- Jesus existed.

Assumption- The girl can't reason for herself.

Assumption- bias is somehow introduced. The girl seems to have to come to this conclusion despite having spent most of her formative years at the hands of the grandparents.

Assumption- "The deciding factors seem to be anything from pride/greed- fear/hatred, not faith or the lack there of, in itself."

I'd suggest that your contribution to this thread is semantically null, and should never have been posted. Your posts here are assumptive and presumptive of your religious bent. This is not the place for an atheist/theist discussion. Ever. You presume WAY too much.
Everyone is intended entitled to an opinion I suppose, regardless of how ill informed it may be.

I agree that here in this thread is not the place to discuss such, and wasn't.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

.....
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10-06-2016, 11:32 PM
RE: My daughter's grandparents want to send her to vacation bible school
As someone whose been to both "Vacation bible camp" and spent my life in a religious home and went to a private christian school, don't make her go. Seriously. Private school is just as bad as public school and even worse, because it's isolating public school, even us outsiders have a chance to make friends.
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