My first Muslim
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20-04-2015, 10:41 PM
My first Muslim
Tonight I chatted with a Muslim about our worldviews (I was wearing my INFIDEL T-shirt at his convenience store and he struck up this conversation with me). It makes zero difference what religion I'm dealing with, the indoctrination and denial run deep in every one. As I talked and listened, it felt an awful lot like déjà vu because these same thoughts and words have been exchanged with my Christian counterparts. Here's how the conversation went:

Me: Does all of the talk of Islamaphobia bother you?
Him: In what way?
Me: Most people associate Islamaphobia with people being afraid of Islam.
Him: Well, I have some in my family.
Me: I guess that's what I'm wondering. I mean, people hear about an atheist and think we're morally bankrupt and eat babies. It frustrates me so I wondered if people being afraid of Islam frustrated you.
Him: It makes me wanna correct them.
Me: Me, too.
Him: What about you, always atheist?
Me: No, Catholic raised, but never a true believer.
Him: That's sad for me to hear.
Me: Don't be sad. We all have our reasons.
Him: I'm sad by my reasons.
Me: Why do you believe Islam is true?
Him: Because I checked all of the paths, including Islam, and I found them all false except for Islam.
Me: Can you expound on that?
Him: For Muslims who live in 2015, the prophet is not with us anymore, right? So we cannot ask for miracles to prove God. At the time of the prophet, it's recorded like 300 miracles for the prophet, and I mean clear miracles like splitting the sea, objects and animals talking like humans, etc.
Me: But ...
Him: The only remaining miracle after the prophet's death is the Quran. I read it and I don't need to finish it to know it's the truth from God.
Me: How?
Him: Countless proofs and evidences. There for those who are sincere in finding guidance.
Me: How?
Him: Check it for yourself, bro! It's free online on quran.com.
Me: OK, so what you're telling me is that every evidence you have comes from the Quran?
Him: I'm telling you the Quran is the evidence. I need nothing more.
Me: OK, why don't you realize the Quran is the claim, not the evidence?
Him: The miracle is that the Quran is both the claim (the testimony) and the proof (the evidence). The Quran states direct statement meaning: "I am your God. Worship Me." That's the claim; it can't be both.
Me: You're losing me.
Him: Hang on, the proof is there, too, but it's not one proof, not one evidence. You're surrounded with evidences.
Me: Name one.
Him: This is exactly why it's the word of God, because no claim can be evidence to itself; that's crazy. If a book does that; it's a miracle!
Me: The book is the claim that these things happened, but in order for those things to be confirmed you need outside contemporary, indifferent sources reporting on these things. You have none. No religion does.
Him: That's impossible and no religion does, I agree, except the Quran, which is why the Quran is a miracle.
Me: By your estimate, something such as Spider-Man could be real. Why do you get to special-plead your holy tome and others don't?
Him: if you tell me Spider-Man exists, I ask you what is your proof?
Me: The comic book is the proof.
Him: The comic book is not the proof; the comic book is the claim. It has no proof.
Me: Neither does the Quran.
Him: The Quran has both the claim and the proof; that's why it's a miracle.
Me: You are practicing what is known as special pleading. Your book can defy logic in your mind, but others can't. That's a fallacy.
Him: Well, the Quran is for those who use their minds, not for those who need to hear or see or feel as evidences, because we are not animals; animals don't understand; we do.
Me: Doesn't sound like it. The miracles you claim are in all religions. Why does your talking animal get true miracle status while the OT doesn't?
Him: Name one and I'm ready to follow the religion which has one miracle.
Me: No miracles have ever happened. But the ones you listed are no different than any other religion.
Him: But I checked them all and I found no single miracle in any religion except Islam. It's full of them.
Me: It's full of something.
Him: What?
Me: Never mind. Your logic is circular. You're saying the Quran is true because the Quran says it's true. Your book has zero proof. Sorry, I'm not insulting you or your religion, I'm just stating fact.
Him: You disbelieve; I believe. We'll keep doing what we're doing and we'll see.
Me: OK, fair enough.
Him: It's very soon.
Me: I'm sure it is. Every religious person who follows a religion that professes the end times are near think it's happening during their time. Good luck with that.
Him: We'll see. By God we'll both see.
Me: Or we won't. I gotta split, nice chatting with you.
Him: May God guide you if you're sincere.
Me: Yeah, sure.

With that, I left for home. The special pleading, circular logic and straight-up delusion was strong with this one. It just baffles me how this guy didn't even comprehend how he made special circumstances for his religion and couldn't see how these very same "miracles" are riddled in other religious stories. If you've seen one, you've seen them all, it seems.

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20-04-2015, 10:46 PM
RE: My first Muslim
(20-04-2015 10:41 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Tonight I chatted with a Muslim about our worldviews (I was wearing my INFIDEL T-shirt at his convenience store and he struck up this conversation with me). It makes zero difference what religion I'm dealing with, the indoctrination and denial run deep in every one. As I talked and listened, it felt an awful lot like déjà vu because these same thoughts and words have been exchanged with my Christian counterparts. Here's how the conversation went:

Me: Does all of the talk of Islamaphobia bother you?
Him: In what way?
Me: Most people associate Islamaphobia with people being afraid of Islam.
Him: Well, I have some in my family.
Me: I guess that's what I'm wondering. I mean, people hear about an atheist and think we're morally bankrupt and eat babies. It frustrates me so I wondered if people being afraid of Islam frustrated you.
Him: It makes me wanna correct them.
Me: Me, too.
Him: What about you, always atheist?
Me: No, Catholic raised, but never a true believer.
Him: That's sad for me to hear.
Me: Don't be sad. We all have our reasons.
Him: I'm sad by my reasons.
Me: Why do you believe Islam is true?
Him: Because I checked all of the paths, including Islam, and I found them all false except for Islam.
Me: Can you expound on that?
Him: For Muslims who live in 2015, the prophet is not with us anymore, right? So we cannot ask for miracles to prove God. At the time of the prophet, it's recorded like 300 miracles for the prophet, and I mean clear miracles like splitting the sea, objects and animals talking like humans, etc.
Me: But ...
Him: The only remaining miracle after the prophet's death is the Quran. I read it and I don't need to finish it to know it's the truth from God.
Me: How?
Him: Countless proofs and evidences. There for those who are sincere in finding guidance.
Me: How?
Him: Check it for yourself, bro! It's free online on quran.com.
Me: OK, so what you're telling me is that every evidence you have comes from the Quran?
Him: I'm telling you the Quran is the evidence. I need nothing more.
Me: OK, why don't you realize the Quran is the claim, not the evidence?
Him: The miracle is that the Quran is both the claim (the testimony) and the proof (the evidence). The Quran states direct statement meaning: "I am your God. Worship Me." That's the claim; it can't be both.
Me: You're losing me.
Him: Hang on, the proof is there, too, but it's not one proof, not one evidence. You're surrounded with evidences.
Me: Name one.
Him: This is exactly why it's the word of God, because no claim can be evidence to itself; that's crazy. If a book does that; it's a miracle!
Me: The book is the claim that these things happened, but in order for those things to be confirmed you need outside contemporary, indifferent sources reporting on these things. You have none. No religion does.
Him: That's impossible and no religion does, I agree, except the Quran, which is why the Quran is a miracle.
Me: By your estimate, something such as Spider-Man could be real. Why do you get to special-plead your holy tome and others don't?
Him: if you tell me Spider-Man exists, I ask you what is your proof?
Me: The comic book is the proof.
Him: The comic book is not the proof; the comic book is the claim. It has no proof.
Me: Neither does the Quran.
Him: The Quran has both the claim and the proof; that's why it's a miracle.
Me: You are practicing what is known as special pleading. Your book can defy logic in your mind, but others can't. That's a fallacy.
Him: Well, the Quran is for those who use their minds, not for those who need to hear or see or feel as evidences, because we are not animals; animals don't understand; we do.
Me: Doesn't sound like it. The miracles you claim are in all religions. Why does your talking animal get true miracle status while the OT doesn't?
Him: Name one and I'm ready to follow the religion which has one miracle.
Me: No miracles have ever happened. But the ones you listed are no different than any other religion.
Him: But I checked them all and I found no single miracle in any religion except Islam. It's full of them.
Me: It's full of something.
Him: What?
Me: Never mind. Your logic is circular. You're saying the Quran is true because the Quran says it's true. Your book has zero proof. Sorry, I'm not insulting you or your religion, I'm just stating fact.
Him: You disbelieve; I believe. We'll keep doing what we're doing and we'll see.
Me: OK, fair enough.
Him: It's very soon.
Me: I'm sure it is. Every religious person who follows a religion that professes the end times are near think it's happening during their time. Good luck with that.
Him: We'll see. By God we'll both see.
Me: Or we won't. I gotta split, nice chatting with you.
Him: May God guide you if you're sincere.
Me: Yeah, sure.

With that, I left for home. The special pleading, circular logic and straight-up delusion was strong with this one. It just baffles me how this guy didn't even comprehend how he made special circumstances for his religion and couldn't see how these very same "miracles" are riddled in other religious stories. If you've seen one, you've seen them all, it seems.

You’re a better man than I, Gunga Din.

I don’t think it has ever crossed my mind to discuss religion with a stranger (face to face that is).

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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20-04-2015, 10:51 PM
RE: My first Muslim
It started with him asking me if my shirt meant what he thought it meant.

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20-04-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: My first Muslim
My first Muslim?

[Image: 3d9.png]

Tongue

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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20-04-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: My first Muslim
LOL. ^^^

First time debating religion with a Muslim.

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20-04-2015, 11:08 PM
RE: My first Muslim
(20-04-2015 10:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  My first Muslim?

[Image: 3d9.png]

Tongue

That was my first thought. And then I thought about my first Muslim Laugh out load

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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20-04-2015, 11:11 PM
RE: My first Muslim
(20-04-2015 11:08 PM)Nurse Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 10:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  My first Muslim?

[Image: 3d9.png]

Tongue

That was my first thought. And then I thought about my first Muslim Laugh out load

Pics, or it didn't happen. Thumbsup

I guess I'm guilty of what those idiots do when they write something like, "Sex! Ok, now that I have your attention, let's talk about variable rate mortgages..."

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20-04-2015, 11:33 PM
RE: My first Muslim
Weird thing I learned in my history of the Middle East course this year:
Many Islams consider the Quran proof of devine testament by it's very existence, but not in the same way that Christians do. Apparently, the Arabic in the Quran is the most perfect and beautiful Arabic ever written (I don't speak Arabic, so I honestly don't know if this is true). Since this perfection of Arabic came from an illiterate desert merchant, it must be devine intervention.

Maybe this is what he was trying to tell you.

This logic is flawed as well. The Quran literally means "to recite," and as such, the original revelations of Muhammad were all oral stories. During the spread of Islam, bits and pieces were written down all over the Middle East, and many people just committed the passages to memory. It was only after Muhammad had died that the Quran was pieced together and written down by all the religious leaders. After which, any and all other evidences were destroyed in order to unify the Islamic faith. Lotta good that did them.

Atir aissom atir imon
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21-04-2015, 01:08 AM
RE: My first Muslim
There are all kinds of problems with Islam.
The Quran borrowed all sorts of its content from the cultures it came from, (thus the claim about "perfect poetry and language" is easily refuted). Many of the stories were commonly circulating, and cultural historians know what they are. One of the (supposed) people who wrote down what their prophet did every month of his life forgot about a calendar change and either had a month that never existed or forgot about the change and had an extra month, (so it was obviously a fraud). Robert Spencer's (YouTube videos) raises all sorts of questions about whether the prophet even existed, that they can't refute.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169445

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-04-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: My first Muslim
Thanks for the additional firepower, everyone. I'll file that away for my next encounter, should there be one. The cognitive dissonance was quite remarkable with this guy. Plus my bullshit meter was ringing pretty loudly when he said he explored all paths. I'm certain he never attended mass in a Catholic Church, read the Bhagavad Gita or spoke with an auditor to get clear. Just another lie from another theist.

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