My husband is a believer / need opinions
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-10-2013, 05:00 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
Do you actually think he would have really killed?

I don't think so. He may have thought the person deserved it and fantasized about it, but there is a long path between thinking about it and doing it. Probably most of us have entertained the thought of getting rid of someone, or punishing them for something that upsets us.

Fear of the long arm of the law is just as effective as fear of god, I dare say fears of the worldly consequences are stronger. The thought of his own future in jail should have settled it.

It's just a silly argument. Worldly consequences are a sufficient deterrent for most people or you'd see a lot more revenge murders.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Dom's post
26-10-2013, 05:13 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 12:10 AM)Smercury44 Wrote:  For some background: my husband is a believer. He leans more toward atheism than he'd probably like to admit, but sometimes I forget, and say things to him that he finds insensitive.

When we get down to whether or not god exists, we eventually end up at this point: if not for the fear of judgement and punishment, he might have murdered someone.

Bear with me. He would never murder anyone innocent, he means those people who really do not deserve to live. A person who molested/raped a child that he knew for example.

He says the only reason he didn't was because he feared eternal hell, and stipulates that if he did not believe in god, he may have committed murder.

Honestly, I don't have a response for this, I truly believe some people deserve to die, and I can't reason out how it is immoral to kill a person who TRULY deserves to die, and how to avoid doing this without the fear of eternal hell.

He agreed to letting me get your thoughts on this subject.

Do individuals have the ability to decide if a person deserves death, and does that person have the right to execute?

In a word, no.

We have a social contract which does not allow this. This is foundational to a society which provides peace and safety.
If we were to grant or acknowledge such a 'right', we would have anarchy.

However, I do empathize with your husband to the extent that I agree with his feeling that society would be better off without some people but the personal cost of making that happen is too high.
I disagree with him on what that cost is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chas's post
26-10-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
So your husband is under the belief that murderers automatically go to hell, no passing go, no collecting $200, that there is no redemption for them, that they cannot be saved.

I have been under the impression that in the Christian faith, to gain entry into heaven, one must repent their sins and be truly sorry for the actions they have committed that have brought harm to others and of course believe in Jesus. The whole loop hole thing.

Tell your husband that he can kill as many people as he would like and still go to heaven, so with that out of the way, let's see if there are any earthly reasons, any human laws and personal consequences from committing murder that will stop him.

I have the sneaking suspicion that he doesn't want to go to prison for the rest of his life, nor lose contact with family & loved ones.
I doubt he'll want to be seen as a murderer for the rest of his life and should he only serve 25 yrs in prison, when he gets out, he'll have to deal with the loss of his family. I also doubt that you are willing to wait 25 years for him to get out. More than likely you will be gone from his life. Could you really share a bed with a man who has no ability to stop himself from killing another person. He longer has the fear of going to hell and he just spent 25 yrs behind bars. Another death wouldn't be so bad in his mind as long as he is right with the lord and believes in Jesus.

You probably shouldn't tell him any of this just in case he's had thoughts of killing you for insurance reasons or because those hashbrowns last saturday for breakfast didn't have enough salt on them. Also, you probably should never watch the show Snapped.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Rahn127's post
26-10-2013, 06:55 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 12:10 AM)Smercury44 Wrote:  For some background: my husband is a believer. He leans more toward atheism than he'd probably like to admit, but sometimes I forget, and say things to him that he finds insensitive.

When we get down to whether or not god exists, we eventually end up at this point: if not for the fear of judgement and punishment, he might have murdered someone.

Bear with me. He would never murder anyone innocent, he means those people who really do not deserve to live. A person who molested/raped a child that he knew for example.

He says the only reason he didn't was because he feared eternal hell, and stipulates that if he did not believe in god, he may have committed murder.

Honestly, I don't have a response for this, I truly believe some people deserve to die, and I can't reason out how it is immoral to kill a person who TRULY deserves to die, and how to avoid doing this without the fear of eternal hell.

He agreed to letting me get your thoughts on this subject.

Do individuals have the ability to decide if a person deserves death, and does that person have the right to execute?

If everyone would resort to vigilante justice it would be chaos. That is why we have a justice system. I think it is not hard to make a case that law and order is a good thing. So to refrain from killing criminals, it is not necessary to believe in God. Believing in a justice system is just as good.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes black_squirrel's post
26-10-2013, 07:16 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
Also has your husband thought that killing this person or persons that "deserve" to be killed could automatically send them to heaven.

It really sounds like your husband has this personal desire to murder another individual and right now he's only focused on people who "deserve" it. When he gets to the point where he can justify murder in his mind, then you will have a bigger problem on your hands.

This guy is a ticking time bomb

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2013, 08:07 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 07:16 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  This guy is a ticking time bomb

AFAIK OP describes it as a hypothetical situation. Lots of people talk of this kind of thing without actually considering murdering someone, it's a kind of 'how far would you go' sort of thought...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
26-10-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
Who needs hypotheticals in a world of Ray Comfort? Tongue

I don't go anywhere near that guy, and I have a similar restraint. If my Gwynnies (who's sweet and adorable and loves essentially everybody) discovered I acted out ('cause we all know Ray needs a killin'), she would be NOT AMUSED. Angry

And then I'd hafta flay the flesh from my body with a razor blade. Big Grin

Yet, I don't by it. Reads like programming to me, that he was indoctrinated into the belief to not do X because of Y. We all have reasons not to go on a killing spree, but the same evolutionary drive that compels us to harvest the weak to preserve the strength of the tribe restricts that harvesting because we are a social species.

What I'm not understanding is why you feel the need to divest him of these delusions. These paradigms are best absolved through self-discovery. Or not.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like houseofcantor's post
26-10-2013, 09:13 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
Now I read the OP again, I have the impression that she and her husband reach an impasse when discussing the existence of god when her husband reveals that, if he didn't believe in god he would have little to dissuade him from murdering someone if it were not for his fear of going to hell and she can't find a reasonable answer to give him.
But I could be wrong.....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2013, 07:40 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 06:54 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I have been under the impression that in the Christian faith, to gain entry into heaven, one must repent their sins and be truly sorry for the actions they have committed that have brought harm to others and of course believe in Jesus. The whole loop hole thing.

Tell your husband that he can kill as many people as he would like and still go to heaven, so with that out of the way, let's see if there are any earthly reasons, any human laws and personal consequences from committing murder that will stop him.

I agree with Rahn. Whether or not an individual ever has the right to decide if another deserves death is an interesting ethical discussion, but it has nothing to do with divine punishment serving as a disincentive to murder.

From the Christian perspective, all sins are deserving of eternal punishment. Told a lie? Go to hell. Killed someone? Go to hell. Picked up sticks on the Sabbath? Get stoned to death and then go to hell (Numbers 15:32-36). If he believes that Christ paid the price for his sins, then killing a child molester shouldn't count against him. Just like how the child molester could convert and avoid damnation as well.

Have you asked him what he would do if he thought God commanded him to kill someone? It's not without Biblical precedent, and modern Christians have used this excuse to kill abortion doctors. Religion essentially makes ethics irrelevant, which is why it's such an effective way to make otherwise good people do bad things.

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Can_of_Beans's post
26-10-2013, 07:53 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 08:27 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Who needs hypotheticals in a world of Ray Comfort? Tongue

I don't go anywhere near that guy, and I have a similar restraint. If my Gwynnies (who's sweet and adorable and loves essentially everybody) discovered I acted out ('cause we all know Ray needs a killin'), she would be NOT AMUSED. Angry

And then I'd hafta flay the flesh from my body with a razor blade. Big Grin

Yet, I don't by it. Reads like programming to me, that he was indoctrinated into the belief to not do X because of Y. We all have reasons not to go on a killing spree, but the same evolutionary drive that compels us to harvest the weak to preserve the strength of the tribe restricts that harvesting because we are a social species.

What I'm not understanding is why you feel the need to divest him of these delusions. These paradigms are best absolved through self-discovery. Or not.
You're scaring me Sad I don't want to know what you would do if there were no gwynnies. People, we need to make Gwyneth Paltrow immortal or I fear the worst.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes grizzlysnake's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: