My husband is a believer / need opinions
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26-10-2013, 08:12 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
Quote:Honestly, I don't have a response for this


Call me a cynic....I've been called worse....but what I think your husband really means is that he's afraid of going to jail for killing someone that the law did not think merited a death sentence.


Quote:Religion is what stops the poor from murdering the rich.

Napoleon I
Emperor of France.

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28-10-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 12:10 AM)Smercury44 Wrote:  For some background: my husband is a believer. He leans more toward atheism than he'd probably like to admit, but sometimes I forget, and say things to him that he finds insensitive.

When we get down to whether or not god exists, we eventually end up at this point: if not for the fear of judgement and punishment, he might have murdered someone.

I am you, and your husband is my wife. Same thing. Though she is slowly turning away at least from organized religion. She is no longer going to church, not asking me to go, and not taking our children.

I didn't mind going to church. It was a social thing. Good place to make friends and have a place to talk. But now we've met some friends who are more like us, and we don't need the church's brand of social judging.
Hell, they don't even have a halloween party. They have a costumeless harvest party.

AND they believe the earth is 6,000 years old.

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28-10-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
You have to ask where the viewpoints derive from. As a fundamentalist/evangelical, my conscience is in large part informed by the scriptures, which teach that it is with good reason governments execute certain criminals.

But when I see freethinkers saying that no one should ever be executed, I remember that the correct Darwinian equation should equal Don't do things that don't enhance your survivability. Someone who murders someone and is then executed will certainly never kill again. In other words, when people without god cling to life as being so important, I have to ask on what basis they're all excited about someone ELSE's life...?
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28-10-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(28-10-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You have to ask where the viewpoints derive from. As a fundamentalist/evangelical, my conscience is in large part informed by the scriptures, which teach that it is with good reason governments execute certain criminals.

But when I see freethinkers saying that no one should ever be executed, I remember that the correct Darwinian equation should equal Don't do things that don't enhance your survivability. Someone who murders someone and is then executed will certainly never kill again. In other words, when people without god cling to life as being so important, I have to ask on what basis they're all excited about someone ELSE's life...?

PJ - I have a permanent palm face when I read most all of your comments.
I can't comment on what you've said because my hand is currently over my face and it's hard to type that way.

"When people without Zeus cling to life as being so important, I have to ask on what basis they're all excited about someone ELSE's life...?"

This is what you have said to me (relatively speaking). When you read this, you will react a certain way and then you will know how I feel and react to your comments.

Take any comment you've made using the word god and replace it with Zeus.
Does it seem just as coherent ? Because it's exactly the same thing, just a different mythological character.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-10-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
To the OP, would your husband murder a man who had been seen taking pictures of children and rumored to be a pedofile ?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/...CMP=twt_gu

This man, Bijan Ebrahimi, 44 was questioned by the police after neighbors saw him taking pictures of children who had been attacking his hanging basket plants.
He had intended to show the pictures to police in an effort to get them to do something.
Rumors then spread that he was a pedofile who had been taken in by police after he took pictures of children in the neighborhood.
The police released him after they discovered that he was innocent and was only taking pictures as evidence of the attacks on his baskets.

A neighbour, Lee James, 24, beat Ebrahim unconscious and then with the help of his friend Stephen Norley, also 24, dragged him into the street.
He was doused with white spirits and set on fire.

This is the problem with taking the law into your own hands. More than often, you don't know the whole story.
You don't have access to any evidence or forensic analysis of the crime scene, let alone access to witnesses.
More the likely, your mind is already made up and when you have the person in front of you that you THINK committed the crime, it's too late.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-10-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 07:40 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Have you asked him what he would do if he thought God commanded him to kill someone? It's not without Biblical precedent, and modern Christians have used this excuse to kill abortion doctors. Religion essentially makes ethics irrelevant, which is why it's such an effective way to make otherwise good people do bad things.

^^This^^

It is unethical to intentionally kill another human being except in self defense. There is no god required to know right from wrong.

I've noticed this behavior in religious people somewhat; an inability to either recognize responsibility/accountability or simply a blatant disregard for it. The excuses seem muddled to me; he made me do this/she made me do that. How can another person make someone else do anything?

"She made me molester her." This is a common defense of rapists and child molesters. "He made me kill him." <-- Really? Who is in control here; he or me? "What this man was doing made me kill him." Whether this man was performing abortions or mowing his lawn, should have nothing to do with me losing control of my faculties and killing him.

If one can not - will not - take responsibility for one's own actions, then someone must have missed the part in playing "house" where the child pretends to be the adult. Maybe they played "church" instead. Dodgy

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30-10-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(28-10-2013 05:23 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 02:23 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You have to ask where the viewpoints derive from. As a fundamentalist/evangelical, my conscience is in large part informed by the scriptures, which teach that it is with good reason governments execute certain criminals.

But when I see freethinkers saying that no one should ever be executed, I remember that the correct Darwinian equation should equal Don't do things that don't enhance your survivability. Someone who murders someone and is then executed will certainly never kill again. In other words, when people without god cling to life as being so important, I have to ask on what basis they're all excited about someone ELSE's life...?

PJ - I have a permanent palm face when I read most all of your comments.
I can't comment on what you've said because my hand is currently over my face and it's hard to type that way.

"When people without Zeus cling to life as being so important, I have to ask on what basis they're all excited about someone ELSE's life...?"

This is what you have said to me (relatively speaking). When you read this, you will react a certain way and then you will know how I feel and react to your comments.

Take any comment you've made using the word god and replace it with Zeus.
Does it seem just as coherent ? Because it's exactly the same thing, just a different mythological character.

Actually I'm referring to your double standard. Freethinkers here seem to a person to oppose executing PEOPLE. But few of them are VEGETARIANS. If you don't want people killed but you EAT other animals, then don't say people aren't special. They are special but you don't want to tolerate a perspective that supports the Bible in any manner.
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30-10-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(29-10-2013 10:52 AM)kim Wrote:  
(26-10-2013 07:40 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Have you asked him what he would do if he thought God commanded him to kill someone? It's not without Biblical precedent, and modern Christians have used this excuse to kill abortion doctors. Religion essentially makes ethics irrelevant, which is why it's such an effective way to make otherwise good people do bad things.

^^This^^

It is unethical to intentionally kill another human being except in self defense. There is no god required to know right from wrong.

I've noticed this behavior in religious people somewhat; an inability to either recognize responsibility/accountability or simply a blatant disregard for it. The excuses seem muddled to me; he made me do this/she made me do that. How can another person make someone else do anything?

"She made me molester her." This is a common defense of rapists and child molesters. "He made me kill him." <-- Really? Who is in control here; he or me? "What this man was doing made me kill him." Whether this man was performing abortions or mowing his lawn, should have nothing to do with me losing control of my faculties and killing him.

If one can not - will not - take responsibility for one's own actions, then someone must have missed the part in playing "house" where the child pretends to be the adult. Maybe they played "church" instead. Dodgy

I'm unsure to what you're referring to. Christian say THEY SIN. Atheists say they do no such thing. WE take responsibility for our actions. I speak for Christians and not "religious people" in general.

Christians say sinners who murder are responsible and not "god made them do it". They ought to be executed.
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30-10-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(26-10-2013 12:10 AM)Smercury44 Wrote:  When we get down to whether or not god exists, we eventually end up at this point: if not for the fear of judgement and punishment, he might have murdered someone.
...
Honestly, I don't have a response for this, I truly believe some people deserve to die, and I can't reason out how it is immoral to kill a person who TRULY deserves to die, and how to avoid doing this without the fear of eternal hell.
...
Do individuals have the ability to decide if a person deserves death, and does that person have the right to execute?
As an amoralist (moral nihilist), terms such as "immoral", "deserves to die", "deserves death", "right to execute" make no sense.
As an atheist obviously terms such as "fear of eternal hell" do not make sense.

So I must justify my actions and my judgement of other people in different ways to this.
I tend not to kill people due to the following reasons:
1. While trying to kill someone I put my own life at risk because my victim will no doubt attempt to foil my attempt
2. If I succesfully kill someone then the friends and family of my victim might attempt to seek revenge on me.
3. I don't want to live in a society which allows people to take vigilante justice because this may make society dangerous, may create feuds and gangs, I may also be a victim of mistaken identity and might be killed without trial for something I didn't do.
4. I don't want to kill someone, only to find out later that the person I killed was innocent.
5. My own friends and family may look poorly on me if I go around killing people
6. I don't want to go to prison
7. I don't want to lose the freedom to travel to other countries.
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30-10-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: My husband is a believer / need opinions
(29-10-2013 10:52 AM)kim Wrote:  It is unethical to intentionally kill another human being except in self defense. There is no god required to know right from wrong.
Oh, the irony here.
But I guess there are many people whom justify abortions as ethical by making a claim that an unborn is not a human being.
Or what about euthanasia, is that ethical? What about death sentence?
Hmmm, I guess we each need to form our own opinions and promote them as ethics and expect others to conform to our own opinions (ethics). If we are in power then we can force these opinions onto people via use of police force.
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