My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
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28-02-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 07:01 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Hmm, let me make this very simple for you:
I don't like roast beef sandwiches.
Therefore, I must like turkey sandwiches.


Can you spot the fallacy? If not, then please don't reply to me nor continue reading from this point.

If yes, then explain to me how this is any different:
We don't know how, or even if, the universe started.
Therefore, God did it.


Is it possible? Yes.
Is it likely? No, not even close.
Is science 100% right about their theories? No, but it's the best we have. If you can come up with something that actually begins to answer real questions and is better than current models, then please, enlighten us.
Until then, shouting "GAWDIDET" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

One atheist refutation against the "Who created the big bang" is "well if God can be eternal, maybe the universe can too". This is the refutation I am discussing as it was used in this thread. I am not discussing the validity of the claim made by theists....only the atheist's refutation. 60 years ago that would have been a fairly reasonable refutation but not anymore as there is a mountain of evidence which suggests the universe had a beginning....that the universe is not eternal. The evidence isn't conclusive however and if you wish to put your faith in that small shadow of uncertainty...by all means have at it.

"We don't know how started" isn't an atheist refutation. If you don't know how the universe started, God is as good an explanation as any. "We don't know how the universe started" does not refute the theists claim that it was started by God. It is certainly not going to persuade them that God doesn't exist.
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28-02-2014, 08:06 PM
My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
This is still -- in a very Creationist way -- ignoring there is more evidence for the Big Bang than the <God exists> premise of <God created the universe>.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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28-02-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 08:06 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  This is still -- in a very Creationist way -- ignoring there is more evidence for the Big Bang than the <God exists> premise of <God created the universe>.

If the theists is asking "Who created the big bang", doesn't that imply that the theist believes in the big bang?

The believing in God doesn't exclude you from believing in the big bang.
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28-02-2014, 08:28 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 07:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you don't know how the universe started, God is as good an explanation as any.

Which god/s?

The Titans

Brahma

Izanagi and sister Izanami

A cosmic egg

Coatlicue

Atum

Apsu and Tiamat

Ahura Mazda

According to Norse lore, before there was Earth (Midgard), there was Muspell, a fiery land guarded by the fire sword-wielding Surt; Ginnungagap, a great void, and Niflheim, a frozen ice-covered land. When the cold of Niflheim touched the fires of Muspell, the giant Ymir and a behemothic cow, Au�humla, emerged from the thaw. Then, the cow licked the god Bor and his wife into being. The couple gave birth to Buri, who fathered three sons, Odin, Vili, and V�. The sons rose up and killed Ymir and from his corpse created from his flesh, the Earth; the mountains from his bones, trees with his hair and rivers, and the seas and lakes with his blood. Within Ymir's hollowed-out skull, the gods created the starry heavens. (this is my favorite of the group)

http://www.livescience.com/11316-top-10-...myths.html

or maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Isn't it simpler and more honest to say we don't know yet and may never know instead of pulling some mythical being out of thin air and saying, "there, this guy did it"?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-02-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 08:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Isn't it simpler and more honest to say we don't know yet and may never know instead of pulling some mythical being out of thin air and saying, "there, this guy did it"?

How does this substantiate the position that there is no God or refute the position that the Universe must have had a cause?
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28-02-2014, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2014 09:22 PM by rampant.a.i..)
My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
That was a concise summary. As mentioned in other threads, First Cause arguments have been used to justify numerous Gods, and the Kalam Cosmological Argument was designed to refer to Allah, not Yahweh.

Ignoring that first cause arguments are entirely circular, It's semantic sleight of hand to insert <Specific deity> as a first cause, or a deity at all.

And no, to the scientifically minded, GodDidIt is not "as good a reason as any." In the absence of evidence, "I don't know and withhold judgement" is the only reasonable choice.

Well, that and the whole part about

(28-02-2014 08:06 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  This is still -- in a very Creationist way -- ignoring there is more evidence for the Big Bang than the <God exists> premise of <God created the universe>.

To say "the universe had a cause" is debatable. To say "The only possible cause is God" is deceptive.

To say "I dub any cause preexisting the universe God, therefore *distract the listener, remove unknown cause, replace with Bible* is a parlor trick: It only fools the people who desperately want to believe in magic.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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28-02-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 07:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  One atheist refutation against the "Who created the big bang" is "well if God can be eternal, maybe the universe can too". This is the refutation I am discussing as it was used in this thread. I am not discussing the validity of the claim made by theists....only the atheist's refutation.

That's nice, but you replied to my comment which was mocking a theist's point of view, not accurately portraying a real atheist's view.

(28-02-2014 07:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  60 years ago that would have been a fairly reasonable refutation but not anymore as there is a mountain of evidence which suggests the universe had a beginning....that the universe is not eternal. The evidence isn't conclusive however and if you wish to put your faith in that small shadow of uncertainty...by all means have at it. 

Um, I never made this claim in this thread, but I have in other conversations so I'll just go with it.
  1. May I see this 'mountain of evidence'you speak of? As I (honestly) am not very knowledgeable as to the scientific explanation of how the universe "began". I'd be interested to read whatever you can show me.
  2. I don't use 'faith'. I don't understand why theists always have to say we atheists use 'faith'. 'Faith' is a knowledge claim. I am not saying I know God didn't created the universe, I'm saying I doubt he did and I prefer the scientific explanation (from what I understand). If you could show me real evidence that God did, in fact, create the universe, then I would be happy to concede my position. But alas, if you had real evidence, why would you need 'faith'?


(28-02-2014 07:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  "We don't know how started" isn't an atheist refutation. If you don't know how the universe started, God is as good an explanation as any. "We don't know how the universe started" does not refute the theists claim that it was started by God. It is certainly not going to persuade them that God doesn't exist.

You're right, "we don't know" is not a refutation. It is an intellectual truth and honesty. Now, that's where you stop being right.
Referring to my previous comment about the sandwiches, just adding "God" to something does not make it possible or even a good explanation. Not only is that a "God of the Gaps" argument (which I would think theists should avoid, since it limits their "omnipotent" creator), but it makes no logical sense and creates more questions than it could possibly hope to answer.
Logically speaking, we know that the "creation" of the universe is a remotely small chance. One in a billion would be giving it too much leeway (for a comparison, if a scientist had a theory that only worked in one out of a hundred cases, he'd be a joke). With that in mind, inserting "God" into the equation only makes it worse. Why? Because you then have the exact same problem, but with a different name and it's even more unlikely. For something as unlikely as the "creation" of the universe, the God in your explanation would have to be at least as unlikely as the original odds, usually more so.

This explanation does not have a hidden agenda as you seem to think it does. It is not out to try and convince anyone about the existence or nonexistence of God. It is only the best explanation we currently have. It is open to faults, and it is open to confrontation. That is the way of science. It does not include the dogmas of religion where you must blindly accept it or burn in hell. Rather, it says, "Hey look guys! This is what we know, and this is what we can infer based on this evidence! Later on when our knowledge and technology advance, we should come up with an even better explanation!"
That, to me, is better than "believe or burn you worthless sinner". If it doesn't convert you, then that's fine. It's your life, live it how you want. Just don't try and force your ideals on other people.

Atir aissom atir imon
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28-02-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 08:55 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  And no, to the scientifically minded, GodDidIt is not "as good a reason as any." In the absence of evidence, "I don't know and withhold judgement" is the only reasonable choice.

Except you've made a judgment. You've judged the cause was something other than God. Doesn't that make your choice unreasonable since you've admitted you don't know?
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28-02-2014, 10:09 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
How the fuck is "I don't know and reserve judgement" considered a choice? You make it sound like a decision has been made. Well yeah, a decision to not have a decision.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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28-02-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: My parents say "who created the big bang?" and ..
(28-02-2014 10:09 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  How the fuck is "I don't know and reserve judgement" considered a choice? You make it sound like a decision has been made. Well yeah, a decision to not have a decision.

You did not reserve judgment. You chose to believe the explanation is something other than God.
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