My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
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16-09-2013, 04:31 PM
Re: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
I think on the subject of random (a word I recognized in the post), clearly one can randomly strike keys and think they are saying coherent things to other people.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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16-09-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
Intelligence is an evolutionary dead end. Tongue

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16-09-2013, 06:00 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2013 06:05 PM by Luminon.)
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(02-07-2013 09:48 AM)bemore Wrote:  And you, the reader are interpreting these dead symbols called writing and language I have put together in your own way, putting all of this together in your own way, quite possibly in a semi state of "auto pilot" in an awareness where you have probably consciously forgotten that right now in this very moment you are breathing....... Smile
Just say you don't know the meaning of life, because you don't have enough information. Don't try to redefine words, it won't make the need for meaning to go away.
I had a problem with this, when I was 4 years old. I remember waking up one morning and depressedly thinking, what am I here for? Who am I? What should I do?

Well, these are valid questions, but it took almost 20 years to answer them. Meanwhile it really helped to feel that I am here for a grand purpose of some kind. Anyway, I figured out these questions and now I am trying to make up the lost years spent in searching for the answer. I should have been somewhere long ago, but I didn't see that quickly enough. So I really speeded up my studies and stuff. You can either live for a tiny meaning now, or grow into a grand purpose in the future. The small meaning didn't really work out for me. It all went wrong when I was too modest in my ambitions.

(15-09-2013 01:23 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  I used to ponder the meaning of life, now I do not anymore. I think I grew out of it over time. I realized that I can make my own meaning, and that living for the moment is not pointless as theists claim. But most of all, if there really were a god and an afterlife, would that make our lives more meaningful? No, it wouldn't. It would only mean that this life is a show set up by God, with no ultimate point, because we wouldn't be able either to hurt or to glorify God. We also wouldn't be able to do anything of permanent significance to the grand scheme of things, as God could do the same (or whatever else he wants) in a blink of an eye. Indeed, "doing God's will" is an incredibly silly concept. If there were a god, he wouldn't have created anything. He'd be enjoying his own self-sufficience, forever.
I think you presume too much about God. Christian theology of superlatives is silly. If God was really omnipotent, then he could make the sun infinitely hot and we would not have this conversation. I'm sure Satan would convince him to do it as a bet Wink

So please explain me something. How do you make your own meaning? I find that incredibly difficult. I don't believe that is possible. I don't make my meaning, I search for it and I arrive at it. I see we can do many meaningless things, but not many meaningful ones.
If we can make our own meaning, there should be virtually a whole science based on this. How comes we don't have it?
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16-09-2013, 06:04 PM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(16-09-2013 06:00 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(02-07-2013 09:48 AM)bemore Wrote:  And you, the reader are interpreting these dead symbols called writing and language I have put together in your own way, putting all of this together in your own way, quite possibly in a semi state of "auto pilot" in an awareness where you have probably consciously forgotten that right now in this very moment you are breathing....... Smile
Just say you don't know the meaning of life, because you don't have enough information. Don't try to redefine words, it won't make the need for meaning to go away.
I had a problem with this, when I was 4 years old. I remember waking up one morning and depressedly thinking, what am I here for? Who am I? What should I do?

Well, these are valid questions, but it took almost 20 years to answer them. Meanwhile it really helped to feel that I am here for a grand purpose of some kind. Anyway, I figured out these questions and now I am trying to make up the lost years spent in searching for the answer. I should have been somewhere long ago, but I didn't see that quickly enough. So I really speeded up my studies and stuff. You can either live for a tiny meaning now, or grow into a grand purpose in the future. The small meaning didn't really work out for me. It all went wrong when I was too modest in my ambitions.

(15-09-2013 01:23 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  I used to ponder the meaning of life, now I do not anymore. I think I grew out of it over time. I realized that I can make my own meaning, and that living for the moment is not pointless as theists claim. But most of all, if there really were a god and an afterlife, would that make our lives more meaningful? No, it wouldn't. It would only mean that this life is a show set up by God, with no ultimate point, because we wouldn't be able either to hurt or to glorify God. We also wouldn't be able to do anything of permanent significance to the grand scheme of things, as God could do the same (or whatever else he wants) in a blink of an eye. Indeed, "doing God's will" is an incredibly silly concept. If there were a god, he wouldn't have created anything. He'd be enjoying his own self-sufficience, forever.
I think you presume too much about God. Christian theology of superlatives is silly. If God was really omnipotent, then he could make the sun infinitely hot and we would not have this conversation Wink

So please explain me something. How do you make your own meaning? I find that incredibly difficult. I don't believe that is possible. I don't make my meaning, I search for it and I arrive at it. I see we can do many meaningless things, but not many meaningful ones.
If we can make our own meaning, there should be virtually a whole science based on this. How comes we don't have it?

There is no "grand purpose". You have to make your own.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
There is no "Meaning of Life". It's pretty much an accident of the universe. So, the question "What's the meaning of Life?" is kind of like asking: What's the meaning of shit? Shit is a byproduct of human beings. Life is a byproduct of the universe.

The relevant question, for us is: How do we best use the short lives we have?
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17-09-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(16-09-2013 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no "grand purpose". You have to make your own.
How does one make purpose? What do we make it of and what is the method?

I see a plenty of grand purposes and I made none of them. It has to do with achieving a function within a greater order of things, a greater system. Ideally, the greatest we can become aware of. The greater system do we work for to bring about some kind of order (or destruction if need be), the greater the purpose. This achievement of the right place at a right time of course takes adjustments of personality, skills, plans and so on.
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17-09-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(17-09-2013 11:20 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no "grand purpose". You have to make your own.
How does one make purpose? What do we make it of and what is the method?

I see a plenty of grand purposes and I made none of them. It has to do with achieving a function within a greater order of things, a greater system. Ideally, the greatest we can become aware of. The greater system do we work for to bring about some kind of order (or destruction if need be), the greater the purpose. This achievement of the right place at a right time of course takes adjustments of personality, skills, plans and so on.

And determining what that purpose is comes from within. You have to choose, it is not external, it is not mandated.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-09-2013, 09:14 AM
 
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(16-09-2013 06:00 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So please explain me something. How do you make your own meaning? I find that incredibly difficult. I don't believe that is possible. I don't make my meaning, I search for it and I arrive at it. I see we can do many meaningless things, but not many meaningful ones.
If we can make our own meaning, there should be virtually a whole science based on this. How comes we don't have it?

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19-09-2013, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 04:23 PM by Luminon.)
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(17-09-2013 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  And determining what that purpose is comes from within. You have to choose, it is not external, it is not mandated.
Does that mean you believe in free will? I wouldn't tell you're the type.
And, I think this stuff I say is important. I think what you say underestimates the problem a lot. Scientists give such a great care to everything, but this they really neglect. They can tell you how to live, but not what to live for. I think the "choice" is a lame excuse for a real answer. Science, reason, atheism, skepticism or whatever gives us so many good answers that I can tell when it does not give us a good one. No wonder even reasonable people turn to religion for a purpose. I see it as a glaring downside, an inconsistency of the rational and scientific worldview. Scientific method gives us 21st century computers and weapons, but it does not give us 21st century minds. Our minds are barely Enlightenment or Renaissance era, mostly older than that. Scientific method does not research ways to improve people's thinking, overthrow the governments, take over the media and fill them with meaningful information about how to live a happy and meaningful life. Science lets it slide. Science is truthful, but it's a whore, it works only for those who pay for the research. Computer and weapon producers pay, guys like me don't.

So this is my research. Nothing can come from within, as long as we are driven from within by the cultural bullshit. Religion controls our life. We can lose religion and become a bit more free, but there are many more bullshit beliefs that control us and restrict us - political beliefs, economical, relationship, national, even philosophical. I met a man over the net who did not understand the nature of physical reality and empirical evidence. He was purely a mathematician, rationalist. Man, that's quite a restrictive belief, let me tell you.

Now, it is possible to lose these beliefs. Most people can't, it's terribly difficult. It kills people. It is done by going through a personal hell that overloads the limbic system, I think that's how it works. Many people don't survive it, some like me get some part of their health damaged.
Now I think I do everything I can to even be able to have free will. But what I found was not more choice, it was less choice. I see a bit clearer and I see that there's about one way to the grand purpose and all other ways are not worth it, they are not real choices as far as I can see. The best that you can get from this is keeping your eyes on the prize - and the prize is automatically the grandest thing you can perceive. People who changed the world still regret they didn't have a family, but they wouldn't exchange it. People who deconverted from Christianity still miss the comfort of faith, but wouldn't exchange it. That is, because they aimed for the greatest purpose in their consciousness. And that is not a choice, that is a realization.

What people have is an illusion of freedom. They cling to choices and they would resent having them taken away, even if they knew they are bad choices. They'd think it's dictatorship. I'd say the freedom is knowing the right choice leading to the greatest purpose you can perceive, even if there was just one. Dictatorship of reality is the one dictatorship we can accept gladly. (Reality is a lenient judge, as long as your lawyer is an empiricist.)

Humans are not good at choices, at decision-making. Our brain is not good at consciously weighing more than 3 factors at once, and there may be hundreds of pertinent factors. And you know the research that the brain unconsciously decides many seconds before we realize the decision and think we just made it. So telling someone that something is a choice, that is not a real answer.
The meaning of life is not a choice. It's like love. Love is not the freedom to have many women, it's the freedom to be with the one woman you love. You do not choose whom you fall in love with.
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19-09-2013, 04:11 PM
RE: My questioning of the question "What is the meaning of life"
(19-09-2013 04:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  And determining what that purpose is comes from within. You have to choose, it is not external, it is not mandated.
Does that mean you believe in free will? I wouldn't tell you're the type.

Nothing can come from within, as long as we are driven from within by the cultural bullshit. Religion controls our life. We can lose religion and become a bit more free, but there are many more bullshit beliefs that control us and restrict us - political beliefs, economical, relationship, national, even philosophical. I met a man over the net who did not understand the nature of physical reality and empirical evidence. He was purely a mathematician, rationalist. Man, that's quite a restrictive belief, let me tell you.

Now, it is possible to lose these beliefs. Most people can't, it's terribly difficult. It kills people. It is done by going through a personal hell that overloads the limbic system, I think that's how it works. Many people don't survive it, some like me get some part of their health damaged.
Now I think I do everything I can to even be able to have free will. But what I found was not more choice, it was less choice. I see a bit clearer and I see that there's about one way to the grand purpose and all other ways are not worth it, they are not real choices as far as I can see. The best that you can get from this is keeping your eyes on the prize - and the prize is automatically the grandest thing you can perceive. People who changed the world still regret they didn't have a family, but they wouldn't exchange it. People who deconverted from Christianity still miss the comfort of faith, but wouldn't exchange it. That is, because they aimed for the greatest purpose in their consciousness.

What people have is an illusion of freedom. They cling to choices and they would resent having them taken away, even if they knew they are bad choices. They'd think it's dictatorship. I'd say the freedom is knowing the right choice leading to the greatest purpose you can perceive, even if there was just one. Dictatorship of reality is the one dictatorship we can accept gladly. Reality is a lenient judge, as long as your lawyer is an empiricist.

The meaning of life is not a choice. It's like love. Love is not the freedom to have many women, it's the freedom to be with the one woman you love. You do not choose whom you fall in love with.

Freedom and free will are not the same thing.

And free will is not absolute or infinite - it is constrained, as you point out.

But we are not automata.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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