My short time on Suscipe Domine
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01-01-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:01 PM)Jayne Wrote:  I do not expect to see anything that I have not seen many times before. I have not seen anything new from an atheist for a long time.

Of course you haven't. Aside from evolving to become increasingly more liberal in their apologetics in order to keep up with a progressing society, religions haven't changed. They have sufficiently been debunked and shown to be manmade constructs with absolutely no evidence in reality.

So there isn't anything new to say. We just keep trying to beat back the crazy and delusion that plagues humanity. No new arguments are needed.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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01-01-2014, 01:27 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 08:59 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 08:36 AM)Jayne Wrote:  I am starting with a difference set of epistemological assumptions from you. Catholic dogmas are axiomatic propositions in my thought system. They can't be challenged by evidence because they are evidence.

This is OK if you're doing maths, because there's no claim that the axioms reflect external reality. As soon as you make *that* claim, the axioms become claims which should be tested to verify if they are true. It might be hard to do so, but they must be tested and discarded if found to be false. Otherwise if you do not test and discard, you are describing an *internally consistent* logic system which *may not correspond* with external reality.

It is not just math. Understanding reality also requires assumptions. People have assumptions about how to verify claims, for example. All anybody can ever have is an internally consistent logic system.
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01-01-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:24 PM)Jayne Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  We get some people here who are sitting on the fence about their beliefs. And guess what often makes them decide that they don't believe? Christians who come here and try to convert. There are so many rude and insulting Christians, it belies everything people thought the religion was supposed to embody.

I thought what happened to KC over there was a lot worse than the dirty words one encounters here. He came to learn from you, and ended up being asked about his beliefs and then was belittled - no actual conversation, he learned nothing except that he stepped into something unpleasant.

To me, that is a lot worse than people here employing a vocabulary that is not pious. If there is a god, and if he has any sense of justice, he is not going to like self righteous snobs who chase off people who come to learn about him.

Just saying.

I can't disagree with any of this. I object to rude and insulting Christians.

Hmmm. KC did play games a bit IMO. He didn't straight up say he were a filthy Calvinist... and he were a bit denunciatory himself which is hardly the way to make friends and influence people... *and* who cares if he got insulted? He knew he was going to encounter heavy fire. Silly bugger Tongue

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-01-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 09:09 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 08:28 AM)Jayne Wrote:  I don't dislike him. While I am uncomfortable with some of what Pope Francis has said and done, he is still my pope. He has my loyalty and obedience.

My mistake, so you do not belong to the "Empty Chair" contingent over there? I did lurk at SD for a while and have read a good bit but I do apologise for assuming your position. Hard to keep peoples positions straight when you don't know them very well.

I remember reading a thread about something Francis said about Mary and most of the posters in that thread were having conniptions about it. Quite a few claimed he was the Anti-Christ (would not be the first Pope to have that tossed his direction) and I thought I remembered you in that group but I could be mistaken.

Either way it was wrong of me to strawman you, even if it was not intentional so you have my sincere apology.

I did post in that thread and I was not happy with what Pope Francis said, but I would never refer to him as the Anti-Christ.

Anyhow, I took no offense from your comment. It was clearly well-intentioned. An apology really is not needed, but I'll accept it if it makes you feel better.Smile
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01-01-2014, 01:32 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:27 PM)Jayne Wrote:  It is not just math. Understanding reality also requires assumptions. People have assumptions about how to verify claims, for example. All anybody can ever have is an internally consistent logic system.

Right, and even the *internal* consistency of for example, the Bible, is under dispute.

How are you confident then that your axioms are correct assumptions if you do not test them ? What alternative method would you use to verify claims ?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-01-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 09:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 09:24 AM)Jayne Wrote:  Atheism can be used in two different senses. It can mean lack of belief in gods or it can mean belief in lack of gods. I have seen these two forms referred to as weak atheism and strong atheism respectively. A person, such as myself, who believes in a deity cannot be called an atheist in a meaningful way. You are just playing with words.

Yes, it is wordplay, but it is wordplay with a point. The point is that you do not believe in other gods, e.g. Baal, Jove, Mithras, and so on. Why do you reject these gods? When you have determined why you reject all of those, you will have some understanding of why I reject yours.

I believe there is One God in Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore there cannot be any other gods. Anything else that is called a god either does not exist or is a demon or perhaps represents a Jungian archetype.

I find it unlikely that your reasoning for rejecting the existence of God resembles mine very closely.
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01-01-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:37 PM)Jayne Wrote:  I find it unlikely that your reasoning for rejecting the existence of God resembles mine very closely.

The point is that other theists, of differing belief systems, have the precise same valid arguments for dismissing your god that you do for dismissing their god.

When you can understand that, then you can see how silly the theistic belief system is.
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01-01-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:37 PM)Jayne Wrote:  I believe there is One God in Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore there cannot be any other gods.

Well, in many, many places of the world, that makes you an atheist. You don't believe in the gods they were raised to believe in. They believe in them without a doubt, just like you believe in yours. It's simply a matter of where you happen to have been born. That culture will indoctrinate you to the exclusion of all others.

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01-01-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 01:37 PM)Jayne Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 09:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, it is wordplay, but it is wordplay with a point. The point is that you do not believe in other gods, e.g. Baal, Jove, Mithras, and so on. Why do you reject these gods? When you have determined why you reject all of those, you will have some understanding of why I reject yours.

I believe there is One God in Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore there cannot be any other gods. Anything else that is called a god either does not exist or is a demon or perhaps represents a Jungian archetype.

I find it unlikely that your reasoning for rejecting the existence of God resembles mine very closely.

What led you to the One God 3 Divine Persons conclusion ?

If something whispers in your ear late at night you now have five options:
a. it's in your head.
b. it's God the 3 in 1 giving you Divine Instructions.
c. it's a Jungian archetype of God giving you Slightly Less Divine Instructions.
d. it's a demon.
e. it's a filthy heathen making a debate point.

How do you tell which ?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-01-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(01-01-2014 10:12 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  When you point to all of Catholic dogma as axioms to your system of epistemology - can you point to the specific list? I gather the list is long and that much of the list is in fact derived rather than axiomatic, for example specific dogmas may have been derived from Biblical sources. Do you feel that none of the dogmas can be removed from your set of axioms without altering your epistemological framework? Do you feel that at least some can be accepted as derived rather than axiomatic?

I think that most Catholic dogmas can be derived from the axioms:
Truth can be found through both reason and revelation.
The Catholic Church is the legitimate source of revelation.

(01-01-2014 10:12 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I saw KC's thread on SD, and the link back to a post on this forum. I think you said there was some excessively hurtful material in that thread. I wasn't involved in the linked thread and haven't so far spotted derision I could specifically connect to you, but I wish you and your family all the best.

Thank you for your kind wishes and your welcome.
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