My short time on Suscipe Domine
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04-01-2014, 03:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 03:33 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 03:16 AM)Othmar Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 08:42 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To the Church's credit, it did eventually admit that Galileo may very well have been right. IN FUCKING 1983!
Though the original issue was a lot less black and white, and more about a paranoid pope rather than the actual science, there are actually a lot of people in those circles who think that admission was an error. Geocentrism is a really common opinion in traditionalist catholicism. Not as common as creationism, but still...

Quite a few geocentrists in this topic.

Oh my dear fuck. They don't actually have a 35 page thread discussing this? Oh my dear fuck they do. ... Hobo

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-01-2014, 03:35 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 03:30 AM)Othmar Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 03:18 AM)DLJ Wrote:  If ever there was an argument for eugenics...

Dodgy
In my case, defending Evolution and the Holocaust made me become a persona non grata amongst the membership there. It was established that "evolutionism" was my religion, and that I was indoctrinated by the evil Jews. Eventually I kept getting spammed by troll accounts, and was banned after losing my patience. Ah, such is life.

Though I must admit I haven't had much patience nor sympathy for creationism for a long time before joining that forum.

When you say... defending the Holocaust ... erm ... I know what you mean Big Grin

I'd be interesting to learn about your journey to enlightenment. It sounds like a gradual process. Have you posted it anywhere?

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04-01-2014, 03:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 04:05 AM by Othmar.)
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 03:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  When you say... defending the Holocaust ... erm ... I know what you mean Big Grin
Wow. Sorry. English not my first language, and I'm still kind of sleepy Blush Yeah, defending the historicity of the Holocaust.

(04-01-2014 03:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'd be interesting to learn about your journey to enlightenment. It sounds like a gradual process. Have you posted it anywhere?
I don't think I have.

I had always considered myself an atheist as a child, and I was rather fond of astronomy. The thing is, I've had a difficult time with bullying back in school, and was approached by religious groups in that difficult time. I wasn't actually very learned in science and philosophy, so their arguments sounded quite convincing against my undeveloped scepticism. The sense of finally belonging somewhere probably did the trick, and I gradually worsened after that. Too my deep shame, in my convert's zeal, I had been indoctrinating myself with creationism and tried spreading that. Throughout the following years I also tried disproving Evolution. Through debates and a lot of reading, I eventually found myself in my last year of high school. Science class was never my best class, but that year Evolution was the main topic that year. All the years of pushing against Evolution had left its mark, because I aced that class, while finally admitting something I had known deep down from the very start... it all makes sense.

Not a real journey to enlightenment, I suppose, more one of ceasing to delude myself.

Concerning the veracity of the holocaust, history has always been my best subject. I never felt any animosity towards the Jewish people either, and neither did the people who initially approached me.
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04-01-2014, 03:55 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 03:30 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 03:16 AM)Othmar Wrote:  Though the original issue was a lot less black and white, and more about a paranoid pope rather than the actual science, there are actually a lot of people in those circles who think that admission was an error. Geocentrism is a really common opinion in traditionalist catholicism. Not as common as creationism, but still...

Quite a few geocentrists in this topic.

Oh my dear fuck. They don't actually have a 35 page thread discussing this? Oh my dear fuck they do. ... Hobo
It's because not everyone is fully convinced, I suppose. Creationism isn't up to debate, the topic "Evolution: The Religion of the Antichrist" only got 8 pages, and quite a few posts in that topic are made by a troll aimed at me.
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04-01-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 03:53 AM)Othmar Wrote:  ...
Not a real journey to enlightenment, I suppose, more one of ceasing to delude myself.
...

Bowing

Welcome to reality. Wink

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04-01-2014, 04:20 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 04:31 AM by Othmar.)
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 04:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 03:53 AM)Othmar Wrote:  ...
Not a real journey to enlightenment, I suppose, more one of ceasing to delude myself.
...

Bowing

Welcome to reality. Wink
I may perhaps daresay I never really believed in God, but that I desperately wanted and tried to believe in God. And that a part of me still wants to. I really don't know what I am at this moment.

My experience with religion hasn't been unequivocally bad, and there are a lot of things that appeal to (parts of) me. The whole Suscipe Domine business was kinda the last straw, though.
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04-01-2014, 05:52 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
There certainly seems to some Suspect and Suspicious Dominance going on over there.

Dodgy

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04-01-2014, 05:56 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 04:20 AM)Othmar Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 04:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Bowing

Welcome to reality. Wink
I may perhaps daresay I never really believed in God, but that I desperately wanted and tried to believe in God. And that a part of me still wants to. I really don't know what I am at this moment.

My experience with religion hasn't been unequivocally bad, and there are a lot of things that appeal to (parts of) me. The whole Suscipe Domine business was kinda the last straw, though.

Of course there are things that appeal to part of you, you had some real reasons for needing to believe. It's a crutch you don't have anymore, and sometimes you feel that you still need it. But you really don't, and the longer you go, the less you will miss it. Once the blinders are off and you see the amazing display of reality, your life will fill up with other things.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-01-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(03-01-2014 10:36 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 06:01 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Well, no -- that's actually one of my beefs with Catholicism. Once a dogma, always a dogma. They absolutely do not change, no matter how silly they may be. The idea that a dogma can change would cause any of those people over at SD to bust a blood vessel...


Hmmm....am I somehow misunderstanding the nuances of the concept of a dogma? If Pope Frankie says that the right wing nazis American bishops need to shut the fuck up with their obsessive campaigns about abortion and gays and focus on stopping the hemorrhaging of its membership, is he not changing church dogma? Was Vatican II not a change of dogma? Perhaps I am misusing the word and there is a better one to describe these reforms...?

I think you're misunderstanding what dogma is. When the Pope advises the Bishops on this or that, that's not dogma. That's just the Pope advising the Bishops. Likewise, Vatican II was a "pastoral council", meaning that it could not change dogma, or define any new dogma. It just revised certain practices (how things are done, as opposed to basic beliefs).

Dogma is the body of "truths" (i.e., beliefs) that all Catholics are required to believe. When something is declared to be dogma (which is actually fairly rare), you must accept it and believe it if you are a Catholic. Not to do so is considered a grave sin.

EK made a snarky comment a few pages back, questioning how something could be an "eternal truth" when it was only declared in 1870 or whatever. Keeping in mind here that I'm basically on his side -- I think all these "eternal truths" are bullshit -- if you look at it from the Church's viewpoint, the truths are eternal, but we haven't always been aware of them. Kind of like gravity. It existed before Newton defined it and quantified it in the 17th century. He didn't invent gravity, he just discovered an intelligible way to describe it. And from the Church's point of view, they didn't just make up the dogma of the Immaculate Conception a hundred years or so ago. It was always true -- that's just when they decided to make it binding on all Catholics to accept it and believe it.
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04-01-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: My short time on Suscipe Domine
(04-01-2014 07:00 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 10:36 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Hmmm....am I somehow misunderstanding the nuances of the concept of a dogma? If Pope Frankie says that the right wing nazis American bishops need to shut the fuck up with their obsessive campaigns about abortion and gays and focus on stopping the hemorrhaging of its membership, is he not changing church dogma? Was Vatican II not a change of dogma? Perhaps I am misusing the word and there is a better one to describe these reforms...?

I think you're misunderstanding what dogma is. When the Pope advises the Bishops on this or that, that's not dogma. That's just the Pope advising the Bishops. Likewise, Vatican II was a "pastoral council", meaning that it could not change dogma, or define any new dogma. It just revised certain practices (how things are done, as opposed to basic beliefs).

Dogma is the body of "truths" (i.e., beliefs) that all Catholics are required to believe. When something is declared to be dogma (which is actually fairly rare), you must accept it and believe it if you are a Catholic. Not to do so is considered a grave sin.

EK made a snarky comment a few pages back, questioning how something could be an "eternal truth" when it was only declared in 1870 or whatever. Keeping in mind here that I'm basically on his side -- I think all these "eternal truths" are bullshit -- if you look at it from the Church's viewpoint, the truths are eternal, but we haven't always been aware of them. Kind of like gravity. It existed before Newton defined it and quantified it in the 17th century. He didn't invent gravity, he just discovered an intelligible way to describe it. And from the Church's point of view, they didn't just make up the dogma of the Immaculate Conception a hundred years or so ago. It was always true -- that's just when they decided to make it binding on all Catholics to accept it and believe it.

Yeah, but what happened to purgatory? It was a given when I grew up, and they abolished it.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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