My son is reading the bible
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05-01-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 11:23 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  what's her name and the Seven Dwarfs.

That's in Deuteronomy, right?

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05-01-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(04-01-2016 10:49 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 05:32 PM)DerFish Wrote:  No one can look at the two of them and say that they are both correct. The cop out is that one is of Mary's family, though they both say thay they are the male descendants.

Oh yes they can. My wife just chalks it up to different people. To her credit, when I point out that the names and the number of generations don't match and these are things that absolutely should match (Joe's father is his father no matter who you ask) but they don't, she just said I don't know. I think I am going to start a running tally on how many times she lobs the different accounts excuse for things that absolutely should be the same no matter who it is from.

I had worked up a 10 minute speech at one point about Joseph having 2 fathers and that would be as big a mackeral as Jesus being born to a virgin wouldn't it?
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05-01-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 03:22 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  TOC -

It sounds like your wife is doing a wonderful job of parenting and you really need to stop interfering. You will be depriving your son of one of the greatest joys of childhood if you ask all the big embarassing questions before he can. I can think of few more effective methods of turning him off of religion than reading the Bibble at him one dreadfully boring chapter at a time.

Seriously though, the direct approach is probably one of the less effective in this case. This can only be a source of dispute between you and your wife. No matter how it's going now, that will get much worse once your kid dumps religion. Keep in mind as well that munchkins are devilishly perceptive. Your son is going to pick up on all this tension but may well misunderstand that the focus of the matter is the book rather than himself. You may be inadvertently lending weight to your wife's cause.

I suggest instead a "compromise". Divide the week up between the two of you. Your wife gets three nights where she reads with/to your son and you get the other three. The kid gets to rest on the seventh. Both of you agree not to interfere with the other. Avoid anything weighty and grab something fun! He's an 8 year old with an active imagination so this is a battle of storytelling.

I'm sure you have a list of childhood favorites but allow me to reccommend the following:

Tolkien: The Hobbit remains a favorite in spite of abuses by Hollywood. If your son enjoyed Harry Potter then it's high time that he was introduced to the man who created the genre. And as much as I enjoyed JK Rowling, I will see your Dark Lord and raise you Smaug the Terrible!

CS Lewis: Kids love the Narnia books regardless of the author's ulterior motives. Lewis did atheism a great favour the day he used a magic wardrobe, wicked witch and pack of talking animals to cleverly illustrate just how fictitious Christianity is.

Terry Pratchett: While Sir Terry did write a couple of series aimed at younger readers, just about any of his works are appropriate. Guards! Guards! is a personal favorite and is the first of many featuring Sam Vimes and the Night Watch. Errol is a loveable supporting character and quite possibly the first dragon to Get It Right.

Roald Dahl: A very odd writer by any standard but highly memorable. Danny Champion of the World is one of his more normal books about a young boy and his scoundrel of a father.

A good solid book of dinosaurs for nonfiction. If possible, these have gotten even cooler over time. Gone is the drab, mud-colouring to be replaced with brightly feathered raptors and a host of other paleontological wonders.

For a fun experiment, leave the book in his room but slightly out of his reach. Then wait and see how long it takes the book to start moving on its own, your household to run out of flashlight batteries and your wife to start reading him a better class of fiction.
Gosh, sometimes I am glad I was neglected as a child, so I didn't have to go through this type of nonsense Tongue.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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05-01-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 10:31 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(05-01-2016 10:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  To hell with reading the bible to a kid. Fuck the bible.

I mentioned my brother reading me Poe's The Raven and The Bells, my dad also read me Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer at night. He also read Charles Dickens and (you're gonna laugh) Canterbury Tales complete with a somewhat interesting old English kinda accent. I had no idea what it was about but it was fun to listen to. My mother once read Shakespeare's St. Crispin's Day speech to me at bedtime. Laughat I had very funny parents. I never had children's books read to me, maybe that's why I'm so goofy. Laugh out load

My mom's a theatre professor. I, too, was exposed to these books and to Shakespeare from a very young age. Henry V (which contains the St. Crispin's Day speech) was my favorite, and remains so. I have the DVD of the Branaugh film version sitting within arm's reach, right now.

I really like the BBC production The Hollow Crown, a compilation of Richard II, Henry IV Parts One and Two, and Henry V.

Jeremy Irons is great as Henry IV, but Tom Hiddleston as Henry V is spectacular.
I bring it up because his rendering of the St. Crispin's Day speech is far more personal and moving, in my view. I prefer it to Branagh, Burton, or Olivier's.




Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-01-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 02:58 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Just so I'm clear, is your wife Christian, and is she "educating" him with the bible? Or is she a skeptic and "exposing" him to the bible?

I personally don't see the reason to expose a child to specifically the bible unless you are trying to indoctrinate the kid. Exposing him to a larger array of holy texts from different theologies might be helpful though.

Oh she is very christian. One of the types who reads the bible constantly but knows pretty much nothing about the book, its history, or whatnot. Of course she is familiar with some of the apologetic BS like saying that the differences in the geneology are because a different authors which of course ignores the fact that Joseph had only 1 father and therefore, all authors must agree on that. It is akin to having different authors disagreeing on Lincoln's father and chalking that up to point-of-view. She wants to indoctrinate them, I want to teach them to be objective and ask questions. I was thinking of reading some greek mythology which is way more interesting anyway.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-01-2016, 06:28 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 03:33 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 10:49 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Oh yes they can. My wife just chalks it up to different people. To her credit, when I point out that the names and the number of generations don't match and these are things that absolutely should match (Joe's father is his father no matter who you ask) but they don't, she just said I don't know. I think I am going to start a running tally on how many times she lobs the different accounts excuse for things that absolutely should be the same no matter who it is from.

I had worked up a 10 minute speech at one point about Joseph having 2 fathers and that would be as big a mackeral as Jesus being born to a virgin wouldn't it?

Oh I pointed that out to her long ago and she kind of stared at me as if she hadn't thought of that before and said IDK. Not sure if she remembers it or not.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-01-2016, 06:37 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 03:22 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  TOC -

It sounds like your wife is doing a wonderful job of parenting and you really need to stop interfering. You will be depriving your son of one of the greatest joys of childhood if you ask all the big embarassing questions before he can. I can think of few more effective methods of turning him off of religion than reading the Bibble at him one dreadfully boring chapter at a time.

Seriously though, the direct approach is probably one of the less effective in this case. This can only be a source of dispute between you and your wife. No matter how it's going now, that will get much worse once your kid dumps religion. Keep in mind as well that munchkins are devilishly perceptive. Your son is going to pick up on all this tension but may well misunderstand that the focus of the matter is the book rather than himself. You may be inadvertently lending weight to your wife's cause.

I suggest instead a "compromise". Divide the week up between the two of you. Your wife gets three nights where she reads with/to your son and you get the other three. The kid gets to rest on the seventh. Both of you agree not to interfere with the other. Avoid anything weighty and grab something fun! He's an 8 year old with an active imagination so this is a battle of storytelling.

I see what you are saying but she is getting a study idea off the internet. If the never hear any discourse, they may think it is not OK to ask questions or discuss the topic. The idea is that I want to raise questions to show them that it is ok to ask them about this subject and hopefully, to show them how to approach things using the Socratic method. I don't want to be the only one asking questions so I always ask my son if he has any first.

Another reason for it is that it forces us to have conversations that she doesn't want to have. She has told me that she thinks that I just don't want to know and not that I have actually pondered these questions for a long time. I sort of want to show her that I am not an atheist because I am running, denying, or resisting but that I arrived here after a very careful analysis of the subject.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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05-01-2016, 09:01 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 06:37 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(05-01-2016 03:22 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  TOC -

It sounds like your wife is doing a wonderful job of parenting and you really need to stop interfering. You will be depriving your son of one of the greatest joys of childhood if you ask all the big embarassing questions before he can. I can think of few more effective methods of turning him off of religion than reading the Bibble at him one dreadfully boring chapter at a time.

Seriously though, the direct approach is probably one of the less effective in this case. This can only be a source of dispute between you and your wife. No matter how it's going now, that will get much worse once your kid dumps religion. Keep in mind as well that munchkins are devilishly perceptive. Your son is going to pick up on all this tension but may well misunderstand that the focus of the matter is the book rather than himself. You may be inadvertently lending weight to your wife's cause.

I suggest instead a "compromise". Divide the week up between the two of you. Your wife gets three nights where she reads with/to your son and you get the other three. The kid gets to rest on the seventh. Both of you agree not to interfere with the other. Avoid anything weighty and grab something fun! He's an 8 year old with an active imagination so this is a battle of storytelling.

I see what you are saying but she is getting a study idea off the internet. If the never hear any discourse, they may think it is not OK to ask questions or discuss the topic. The idea is that I want to raise questions to show them that it is ok to ask them about this subject and hopefully, to show them how to approach things using the Socratic method. I don't want to be the only one asking questions so I always ask my son if he has any first.

Another reason for it is that it forces us to have conversations that she doesn't want to have. She has told me that she thinks that I just don't want to know and not that I have actually pondered these questions for a long time. I sort of want to show her that I am not an atheist because I am running, denying, or resisting but that I arrived here after a very careful analysis of the subject.

In my experience, getting children to start asking questions is rarely the problem. Teach them to ask questions and teach them that the answers can be amazing and wondrous. Give them that and religion doesn't stand a chance. That big book of dinosaurs might serve you well for that. You can ask questions about them until it becomes a profession and the answers you get are more fascinating than any fiction.

The Greek mythology is a good notion. Compared to the Bible, the writing is much better and much more internally consistent.

I wouldn't worry too much if your son does believe in god. I remember doing so at his age. I was in a similar situation, though my mother's leanings were more liberal than your wife's sound. I remember praying that I would live forever. You see, I had spotted an obvious problem with this whole dying and going to heaven business. Kids make some of the finest atheists around by the simple virtue of shamelessly asking questions so obvious that no amount of flim-flammery will ever get around them.

Good luck with your wife. I suspect that a less confrontational approach might benefit you there too. If she could understand why you are an atheist then she would likely be one herself.

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05-01-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
Wait a second... Did you say that she has an internet Bible study plan? And that's what has her reading begats to an eight year old?!? That level of pedagogical ineptitude borders on the criminally stupid. Is there any chance that she's been suckered by an unusually clever poe?

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05-01-2016, 09:55 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 04:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-01-2016 10:31 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My mom's a theatre professor. I, too, was exposed to these books and to Shakespeare from a very young age. Henry V (which contains the St. Crispin's Day speech) was my favorite, and remains so. I have the DVD of the Branaugh film version sitting within arm's reach, right now.

I really like the BBC production The Hollow Crown, a compilation of Richard II, Henry IV Parts One and Two, and Henry V.

Jeremy Irons is great as Henry IV, but Tom Hiddleston as Henry V is spectacular.
I bring it up because his rendering of the St. Crispin's Day speech is far more personal and moving, in my view. I prefer it to Branagh, Burton, or Olivier's.




This is totally off topic but I like different versions of that speech for various reasons depending on the mood I'm in. This one is wonderful too.

Even more off topic. When George Bush was preparing to make his speech surrounded by the unforgettable ruins of the Twin Towers a few days after 9/11 I was expecting a St Crispin's Day style of speech. It called for something memorable and lasting and historic. After all it was one of the most dramatic and intense scenes a president had been in in recent times and he could have roused the world with a St Crispin type speech. But instead it was this dud of a talk, like some farmer talking about really bad weather. It would have also helped if he had gone after the correct enemy but that's even more off topic.

Ok, back to reading the bible to his son.......

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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