My son is reading the bible
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06-01-2016, 08:36 AM
RE: My son is reading the bible
One step further into weirdism than reading the Babble is to read the Book Of Mormon "And it came to pass that it came to pass!"
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06-01-2016, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2016 11:24 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 09:01 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  In my experience, getting children to start asking questions is rarely the problem. Teach them to ask questions and teach them that the answers can be amazing and wondrous. Give them that and religion doesn't stand a chance. That big book of dinosaurs might serve you well for that. You can ask questions about them until it becomes a profession and the answers you get are more fascinating than any fiction.

My 8 YO is a pretty sharp kid I think. I more wanted to show him that it is OK to ask questions about it and challenge an answer if it is unsatisfactory.

(05-01-2016 09:01 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I wouldn't worry too much if your son does believe in god.

He has already said he doesn't last year. I told him that he is 8 and there is no need to be in a rush. He needs to listen and think about what he hears.

(05-01-2016 09:01 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Good luck with your wife. I suspect that a less confrontational approach might benefit you there too. If she could understand why you are an atheist then she would likely be one herself.

Thanks. I didn't say anything a last night as it was the part about John the Baptist. Getting her to be an atheist is absolutely not my goal. It makes no difference to me what she believes. I just hate that she doesn't understand why I don't buy it and I am pretty sure that when it comes up with others (which is probably rare) that they say something stupid like I just don't understand the love of J-man, or I am in denial, or that I just don't want to know. That garbage really pisses me off when I am told it in person. The thing that I find so interesting is that I have had a little bird tell me that there are some of them who want to talk to me but for whatever reason, they find me intimidating. I am more willing to bet that it isn't me they find intimidating, it's that after I had a really great conversation with a friend, they know that I actually am aware of what I am talking about. I can have a conversation about anything else with people and I am pretty sure they aren't intimidated by me then so I really doubt it's me. I bet it is what I represent.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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06-01-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(05-01-2016 09:18 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Wait a second... Did you say that she has an internet Bible study plan? And that's what has her reading begats to an eight year old?!? That level of pedagogical ineptitude borders on the criminally stupid. Is there any chance that she's been suckered by an unusually clever poe?

Nah, I don't think it is a Poe. It was from biblegateway I think. I love biblegateway BTW, the easiest way to cross reference passages and different versions. My son said he wanted to read the bible cover to cover so she found this plan on reading it entirely in one year. I don't object to this since it is a complete reading. I would really have a problem with it if it was jumping around and cherrypicking but it doesn't do that. I would love to crawl in her head though as we are going through this to see what she is thinking and if she is even thinking about what is being said.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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06-01-2016, 06:57 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(06-01-2016 11:18 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  My 8 YO is a pretty sharp kid I think. I more wanted to show him that it is OK to ask questions about it and challenge an answer if it is unsatisfactory.

Sounds like you have little to worry about then.

Quote:He has already said he doesn't last year.

Just out of curiosity, did he say why?

Quote:Getting her to be an atheist is absolutely not my goal.

I didn't suspect that it was. It's just what you'd get if she could understand why you don't believe. From the sounds of it, your wife's theology isn't terribly deeply thought out. I've known a couple of people with similar development of belief who had their faith stripped away and it was very damaging. Left with nothing to believe and no tools to develop new beliefs they just latched on to the first thing with hooks that they wandered past.

Quote:I just hate that she doesn't understand why I don't buy it

What you need is a sympathetic theist. Somebody from her world but with a sufficiently mature worldview that they can see into yours. A translator if you will.

Quote:and I am pretty sure that when it comes up with others (which is probably rare) that they say something stupid like I just don't understand the love of J-man, or I am in denial, or that I just don't want to know. That garbage really pisses me off when I am told it in person.

I have exactly the opposite reaction. I find it hilarious that somebody has presumed to understand my motivations from such a superficial examination and jumped to some dismally wrong conclusion about me. I suppose it helps that I'm not married to that person.

My all time favorite is that I must have had a bad experience with my church that turned me off of Gawd, blah, blah,blah. I was a geeky little kid who got tormented a lot at school. Church was one of the few bright spots in my childhood. By their reasoning I should have dropped out of school and joined the seminary. I left church because I respected them too much to continue the hypocrisy of mouthing the words.

Quote:I am more willing to bet that it isn't me they find intimidating

That's one bet I won't be taking. It's telling that they're so insecure in their faith.

(06-01-2016 11:23 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I love biblegateway BTW

Same here. Very handy reference and beautifully organized. I wonder if they know how much of a favour they're doing for us heathens.

Quote:My son said he wanted to read the bible cover to cover

Did he say why? I've tried a few times but have never managed to choke much of it down. Got a few pages past the Pentateuch once.

Quote:I don't object to this since it is a complete reading.

Complete reading of the NT or will it delve into the OT at some point? Genesis isn't necessarily the best place to start reading the Bible but it is a gem. It's hard to miss the point that drowning all the sinners also killed a lot of puppies and kittens as well.

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06-01-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Just out of curiosity, did he say why?

He has said so to me directly before but I didn't really know if he was just saying it because he thought it would upset me if he actually did. What really made me think he really doesn't is that about 6 months ago, he told his cousin (wife's side, VERY religious) that he didn't believe and my nephew threatened to punch him. I know for a fact that my presence was not a factor because I was in China at the time.

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I didn't suspect that it was. It's just what you'd get if she could understand why you don't believe. From the sounds of it, your wife's theology isn't terribly deeply thought out. I've known a couple of people with similar development of belief who had their faith stripped away and it was very damaging. Left with nothing to believe and no tools to develop new beliefs they just latched on to the first thing with hooks that they wandered past.

This actually terrifies me. My fear is that she will deconvert and resent me even though the conversations we are having are rather inevitable. I don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks about me in that regard but it scares me to death that she will hate me if her faith fades. I shared this with her a while ago. I know her theology isn't well thought out. It takes no more than 1-2 questions before the IDK's or the faith card comes out.

Quote:I just hate that she doesn't understand why I don't buy it

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I have exactly the opposite reaction. I find it hilarious that somebody has presumed to understand my motivations from such a superficial examination and jumped to some dismally wrong conclusion about me. I suppose it helps that I'm not married to that person.

Well, on one hand, it does amuse me but on the other, it pisses me off because for people of strong faith, they are rather pussies about it. I know that there are some guys on my softball team who would love to talk to me but I think that a few are kind of scared as to what I will say.

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I left church because I respected them too much to continue the hypocrisy of mouthing the words.

My wife and I work out at the church gym and I used to stay in for the devotional but after a few facepalms and chuckles that unintentionally went noticed, I had to excuse myself and stretch outside the room. The head pastor (who is a really great guy) once said that I shouldn't be afraid and should go in. That was an interesting exchange.

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  That's one bet I won't be taking. It's telling that they're so insecure in their faith.

I agree. What I was trying to get at is that I don't think it's my personality that they find intimidating, but my doubt and willingness to discuss.

(06-01-2016 11:23 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I love biblegateway BTW

Same here. Very handy reference and beautifully organized. I wonder if they know how much of a favour they're doing for us heathens.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. They really did a fine job with the interface.

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Did he say why? I've tried a few times but have never managed to choke much of it down. Got a few pages past the Pentateuch once.

I think he did it because I did it myself. In addition to reading it casually, I have read it cover to cover 5 times. I first accomplished it when I was 14. It was in that reading that really began my doubts when I started to notice continuity problems when I picked up history books. It always cracks me up in christian movies where the lost puppy picks up the bible one evening and the next thing you know, they praise Jeebus. It really doesn't work like that and deep down, I can't imagine they don't realize this. It is a very hard grind, especially Chronicles. The NT is much easier to read but more sinister.

(06-01-2016 06:57 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Complete reading of the NT or will it delve into the OT at some point? Genesis isn't necessarily the best place to start reading the Bible but it is a gem. It's hard to miss the point that drowning all the sinners also killed a lot of puppies and kittens as well.

It will delve into the OT I think. He is already aware of the Noah story.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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07-01-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(04-01-2016 05:06 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  It will be difficult to have him do the gospels in parallel with her there to see if he spots the differences

Doing a chapter a day, probably not. There will be about a month between each separate account, and the overall narrative is close enough that he will probably mind-caulk over any differences. Your average Christian isn't aware of these things, either.

That being said, I hope this all goes well. You should engage your son and ask him questions about this. That's usually what I do when my seven-year-old starts talking about God.
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07-01-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(06-01-2016 10:31 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  This actually terrifies me. My fear is that she will deconvert and resent me even though the conversations we are having are rather inevitable. I don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks about me in that regard but it scares me to death that she will hate me if her faith fades. I shared this with her a while ago. I know her theology isn't well thought out. It takes no more than 1-2 questions before the IDK's or the faith card comes out.

Sounds like you really do need a mature theist who can guide her through to something more substantial. I doubt that you'll be able to do that yourself. It's a sad irony that while you're likely more capable of helping her mature in her faith than 90% of theists out there, anything that you say or do will immediately be viewed with distrust.

Quote:I know that there are some guys on my softball team who would love to talk to me but I think that a few are kind of scared as to what I will say.

I'm getting the impression that you live in the deep south. I'm in Eastern Canada. You should pop up for a vacation some time.

Quote:In addition to reading it casually, I have read it cover to cover 5 times.

Blink You are one twisted puppy. I've tried a few times. I'd love to be able to just for the cultural and historical perspective. But it reads like bad fiction written and revised by a series of senate subcomittees where none of the members shared a common language.

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11-01-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: My son is reading the bible
So the other night when we were reading the nightly chapter from Matthew, it brought up HELL!!! My son asked what that was. My wife and I explained it quickly and his reply was: "that's stupid." To which her reply is that not everyone believes in hell who believes in Jesus. I couldn't help but wonder if she even was listening to herself. She was saying that there are people who believe that Jesus was actually god and that these were the actual words he spoke and yet reject a fundamental teaching that was first brought up by him. I know she believes in hell, we have discussed it in the past, so I really can't help but wonder who she could have been referring to. This little exercise is kind of turning into an interesting foray into her mind. What is even more interesting is that she was absolutely in agreement with me a little earlier when I pointed out that the entire Catholic church goes against what Jesus teaches in Matthew about prayer. I find it fascinating that she can follow some things while blatantly ignoring others and this (by all outward appearances) seems perfectly rational to her.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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11-01-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(11-01-2016 11:19 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  So the other night when we were reading the nightly chapter from Matthew, it brought up HELL!!! My son asked what that was. My wife and I explained it quickly and his reply was: "that's stupid." To which her reply is that not everyone believes in hell who believes in Jesus. I couldn't help but wonder if she even was listening to herself. She was saying that there are people who believe that Jesus was actually god and that these were the actual words he spoke and yet reject a fundamental teaching that was first brought up by him. I know she believes in hell, we have discussed it in the past, so I really can't help but wonder who she could have been referring to. This little exercise is kind of turning into an interesting foray into her mind. What is even more interesting is that she was absolutely in agreement with me a little earlier when I pointed out that the entire Catholic church goes against what Jesus teaches in Matthew about prayer. I find it fascinating that she can follow some things while blatantly ignoring others and this (by all outward appearances) seems perfectly rational to her.

As a former Christian, I can relate to her way of thinking. It's brainwashing by the church, really. You are taught not to question by the church. Your family and friends and community reiterate the message that Jesus/God/all of it is true.

I think this is a good exercise with the both of you reading the Bible with your son because it is causing your son to ask questions, and in turn, may cause your wife to ask questions. Once you step outside of the church bubble and *allow* yourself to question, things become a lot clearer. Getting someone to the point of questioning their faith is hard though. I was threatened by a pastor with hell, God being mad at me, heresy, not loving Jesus enough despite his suffering for me etc. etc. Luckily, I was able to get out from under all of that and realign my thinking. I had to face my fears of hell to do it though and I also remember telling God that I needed to go on a journey to figure out the truth and hoped he understood and wouldn't be too mad at me Facepalm

Here's hoping that your son's questions will be a non-threatening way for your wife to start to question her own beliefs.
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11-01-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: My son is reading the bible
(11-01-2016 11:19 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  So the other night when we were reading the nightly chapter from Matthew, it brought up HELL!!! My son asked what that was. My wife and I explained it quickly and his reply was: "that's stupid." To which her reply is that not everyone believes in hell who believes in Jesus. I couldn't help but wonder if she even was listening to herself. She was saying that there are people who believe that Jesus was actually god and that these were the actual words he spoke and yet reject a fundamental teaching that was first brought up by him. I know she believes in hell, we have discussed it in the past, so I really can't help but wonder who she could have been referring to. This little exercise is kind of turning into an interesting foray into her mind. What is even more interesting is that she was absolutely in agreement with me a little earlier when I pointed out that the entire Catholic church goes against what Jesus teaches in Matthew about prayer. I find it fascinating that she can follow some things while blatantly ignoring others and this (by all outward appearances) seems perfectly rational to her.

Sounds like perfectly straightforward doublethink to me. I can do that too Tongue The objective is the pink bubbly cloud of bliss, knowing that God loves you. Since you know that God loves you, any contradiction pointed out to you by a five year old is simply him not understanding God. Any contradiction pointed out to you by a 30 year old or 80 year old or even Chas, is the same.

God is simultaneously a bloodthirsty bastard and a loving Dad. The bloodthirsty bastard bit is undeniable 'cos it's right there in the bible, but those poor Moabite virgins and all the others were *sinners* anyway, so it's fine. SHUT UP. It's fine. God loves me and us believers we're all gonna party in heaven and all you stinky atheists will SHUT UP forever. FUCK! SHUT UP!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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