My story
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10-05-2011, 12:53 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2011 01:36 AM by BlackEyedGhost.)
My story
Way back in the year 1992 I was born. At about the age of 7 I remember my brother yelling at me for throwing away a present he gave to me saying "You have NO common sense." I realized just how stupid and selfish I had been and thought to myself "he's right." That day I swore to myself that I would do my best to understand things and to have common sense. Now my family was always Christian, but for me the experience had been strictly going to church on Sundays and Christmas Eve. Mostly that entailed listening to worship songs, hearing the preacher say what things were bad, and remembering Bible verses for the 5 seconds it took me to get the candy for it. I believed in God, but it hadn't ever been much more than me praying and thinking He was trying to poison me with the ugly pieces of cereal. Around 7th grade it started to get intellectual and I decided to try reading the Bible. I read a little of Genesis and Revelation, but despite some interesting parts, they were pretty dry for me. (TBC, character limit)
Then I opened to Matthew and read the story of Jesus' life. I had always known that Jesus had died on a cross, but I'd never known the story of His LIFE. As I read I was constantly bombarded by thoughts of my own life and how stupid my ways of doing things were. This single story was without a doubt the most amazing thing I had ever read or even heard of. I didn't care much about the miracles or any supernatural things in the story, but rather about the incredible wisdom and insight that Jesus had. He was without a doubt the most amazing person I'd ever encountered. As I continued my interest turned to passion, my enjoyment turned to love, and my belief turned to faith. If there was anything worth living for, it was this man. A man who never asked anyone to serve him and who always served others to the best of his ability was the kind of man I wanted to serve. (tbc again.....)
When I got to the end of Matthew I read "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" So I decided to get baptized. I wanted to tell the world just how much I loved Jesus. I wanted to improve myself and my life. I wanted to become the best person I could be and to help others be the best they could as well. At that point, I was a typical stupid evangalist, going to random people and friends and saying "you should read the Bible" and the like. That mostly ended when one of my friends (a unitarian) said he had read the Bible and enjoyed it, but had problems with it too. I began learning about appologetics and I debated in online forums and got eaten alive by the opposite side. Thus began my quest for real knowledge. No longer were my petty arguments satisfactory. I wanted the TRUTH. So any chance I had I would learn. I've relived my experience of being wrong many times and have made a rule that I must accept defeat and be honest. (tbc)
The truth is another name that Jesus is called and in my eyes is a very true assessment of Him. He knew the answers to every problem that had plagued my mind and more. He was my teacher and source of truth. So it's only fitting that the truth be just as important to me as He is. That's what I'm in search of here and so far I've been faced with difficult questions and have learned an entirely new way of looking at the world. The natralist view. The atheist view. I can understand how I could look at everything without God, but looking at things in that way doesn't seem rational to me. Thus I'm still here trying to see if it really is irrational or if I am. In my other thread titled "an argument" I posted my strongest argument against atheism. I still haven't gotten a response that provides a credible alternative theory to Intelligent Design. I want to learn and to teach, that's the main two missions that I was given in that last part of Matthew and throughout my reading. Thanks for reading! Big Grin
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10-05-2011, 04:00 AM
RE: My story
BEG - I'm going to be blunt with you, but not trying to be mean - hope you don't take it that way...

1. You're all of 19 years old? Wow, to be that young again...I'm not saying you're naive, just a recognition that you still have about 10 years or so of growing up and maturing to do. When I was your age, I felt very enthused and infused with Jesus and found the bible very inspiring. Over the next 10 years you will actually live independently (hopefully - and I say that more with regard to my own children than for you) and gain world experiences (maybe) that will reshape, and further reshape your views on just about everything - from politics, relationships, religion, etc.

2. You state: "Thus I'm still here trying to see if it really is irrational or if I am." Most of us have come to the conclusion over time that all religions are irrational. I've read through your previous posts and the arguments you presented and received and you still feel they lack validity. So? What now? Rehash the same lines of thought in a new thread? This ground has been well traversed already and you've been a part of it. If you wish to hold on to your faith and continue down your path I wish you the best, but you obviously have additional issues you are trying to address. Based on your post you are trying to do one (or more) of the following:

A. Playing stump the atheist.
B. Questioning your own faith - because deep down you have reservations or because you feel it makes your faith stronger.
C. You are covertly proselytizing and seeking converts.

Just promise to come back when you're 30 and fill us in on your experiences.

PS - for everyone - I'm not trying to belittle youthful adults. Just saying there is so much personal growth that takes place between 18 and 30 and just the act of living and experiencing life will change outlooks on views dramatically during this time.

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10-05-2011, 04:24 AM
RE: My story
Hey BEG, glad to see you're still with us. Thank you for sharing your story. That's some pretty personal stuff, and I'm glad you feel we deserve to know those personal things about you.

I had some trouble figuring out how to respond to this thread. I really felt like there was a question being asked, but wasn't sure what it was. Finally I concluded that you wanted to continue dialogue because you weren't yet satisfied with the last conversation. (Does that sound like I'm being negative? Wish you could hear my voice so you could see it's not at all) This line is what stood out and made me think that:
(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I still haven't gotten a response that provides a credible alternative theory to Intelligent Design.

If I'm off base, let me know. If I'm picking you up clearly then my response would be this.
You may never find a theory that is credible enough for you. That's cool. Hell, I am always encouraging my own kids to question everything. Glad to see you questioning too. That said, your quote above leaves me wondering something.
Does no credible alternative theory to intelligent design lend credibility to intelligent design?

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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10-05-2011, 04:38 AM
RE: My story
I've gotta say, I'm atheist to the core but I have a lot of respect for someone who seeks to question their own beliefs and further their knowledge. Most Christians, in my opinion, have no intention to do either and are even offended by the notion of doing such a thing. While I don't agree with your conclusions on the world (and definitely don't see enjoying a story as reason to believe it (I love Spiderman and think we could all learn from his selfless example, doesn't mean I believe in him)), I respect the fact that they are informed conclusions as opposed to the ill-informed conclusions most Christians (my family included) blindly defend. Part of me would love to debate you on the subject and try to answer your questions but, to be brutally honest, I don't feel that I would be able to give any satisfactory answers. I am 19 myself and though I feel, for my age, I have a very good understanding of religion, I think that my understanding is probably limited when compared to some people who are older and have more experience of the subject.

However as a ID theorist I was wondering if you can provide any sort of answer to a problem that I see with ID. Most ID theorists (I don't know about you) state that 'The world is too complicated to exist by chance, therefore it must have been created' (usually accompanied by a reference to computers/cars anything man-made and then they say 'Man is more complex and made computers/cars which are less complex, this is also true for the world. You need something more complex to created something less complex'), this implies that God is more complex than the world. The problem with this is that, by that very argument, God would need a more complex creator (Super God?) and the more complex creator would need an even more complex creator (Super Super God?) ad infinitum. At this point most ID theorists I have met say 'Well God doesn't need to be created'. I see this as them refuting their own theory as they are admitting that something complex can exist without being created, which is in direct violation of their original argument.

What would your views on this be?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-05-2011, 04:58 AM
RE: My story
(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I didn't care much about the miracles or any supernatural things in the story, but rather about the incredible wisdom and insight that Jesus had.

Read Mark 7:10
I hope you never insulted your parents, because according to this guy you like so much, you should be put to death for it.

Your great example never said anything in opposition to slavery either. Nor does he speak out against beatings, child abuse or genocide.

He's an asshole, even if he did some good thing. He's definately not a role model.

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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10-05-2011, 05:21 AM
RE: My story
Hmmm... You are still here and you are still searching. Very good, my young apprentice... (evil grin...) Smile

So, I will continue the question "hughsie" started... You say that you can not find a better theory than Intelligent Design? OK, so you don't believe or don't understand the archaeological evidence, I can understand that. But after all this talk with you and other ID Creationists, I never saw not a single evidence for your theory. What is you evidence for 6500 years old earth? The Bible? That is not an evidence, we discussed how Bible was changed through ages, how it was written by men a few thousand years ago, when they all thought Earth was flat. Why? Because they lacked the SCIENTIFIC METHODS to LEARN and to EXPLORE other possibilities. So if The Bible is your only evidence, then you should look further and find ANY other evidence, that is not religious, but SCIENTIFIC and present it here, or to yourself. Do you get my point? There are no hard evidence for Young Earth, except the Bible, and you may see that as evidence, but we don't, and never will, because The Bible is a religious text, not a science book...

So maybe you shouldn't be trying to explain our point of view, but try to explain your point of view, try to read between the lines. Don't look at religious text as scientific evidence. And if you throw out all the Bible quotes from Creationists "evidence" you will se how nothing is left... And if you don't believe us, "devil Atheists", try looking into Roman-Catholic church, they don't accept ID, they are not Creationists, but they believe in Bible and they have been using and exploring the Bible couple of hundreds years before first Creationists. They have abandoned Creationism a long time ago, and accept The Bible as a word of God, but not that literally, Bible is something to think about, it is full of deeper meaning, if you read it literally you miss the whole point.

And I apologize if I sound religious, it was not my intention.

Smile

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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10-05-2011, 08:00 AM
RE: My story
I read your other thread and this one, and I think you are making on critical mistake; you're demanding proof for evolution/abiogensis, but not so much for your starting position. It's okay to demand proof for something(just be sure to objectively look at it and accept the theories if the proof is good enough), but you really should do that with your side as well. We all looked at the evidence and turned up atheist, but you don't necessarily have to be either. You can step back from your position as a Christian and just not hold any position at all while you try to examine all evidence objectively.

In your other thread, you were basically using the irreducible complexity argument, while having the notion that God made everything as the default. But the default position in a quest for knowledge should be "I don't know". The world around us is complex, and we wonder how such complexity could come about. "God must have done it" isn't logically sound since you are making an assertion without any evidence. The better answer would be "We don't know, let's try to find out".

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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10-05-2011, 09:11 AM
RE: My story
And this is what I was trying to say...

Smile

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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10-05-2011, 10:09 AM
 
RE: My story
I think the key note in your story is that you’re after the truth, a most noble goal indeed! The question is, are you open to it, no matter how much you might dislike it?

I’m not going to go into the existence of god, as I’m not a philosopher and don’t think you can either prove his existence or disprove it, but I take note to your claim there’s no credible alternative theory to intelligent design.

Biologically, I assume you’re talking about abiogenesis, as the proof of evolution and everything that happened afterwards is overwhelming. It’s true we don’t know exactly how the first self-replicating molecules arose, but experts are certainly on their way. Several key ingredients have been shown to be able to form in the environment of the early earth. If (I should probably say when) we are able to reproduce the entire process and make new life in a lab under such conditions, would that be enough to prove life formed on its own? Or would it simply push god’s role in the creation one step back?
There is of course no guarantee we will be able to recreate biogenesis, it might have been an exceedingly difficult and rare chemical process, it’ll be exciting to find out as new evidence is discovered. Smile


If you’re talking about the big bang, there are a few misconceptions that should be clarified. The big bang is not the beginning of the universe, but the beginning of the universe as we know it. There is no scientific sense in saying anything about what happened before this point, because the laws of physics as we know them break down. We don’t know enough to do anything but speculate. You can say you think god comes in at this point, but to claim he must, shows a lack of imagination. There are an infinite amount of possibilities, none of which we can say is true, we simply don’t know enough yet. The universe could even have come from nothing, which seems more and more possible with the evidence of a flat universe coming around. Here the same question can be asked, will god simply be pushed back a step should we find out what came before the big bang? When will evidence to the contrary be enough to give up the belief in something that has no empirical evidence to it? And if there is nothing that will, are you really searching for truth or justification for your belief?

Note that by evidence I don’t see logical induction as evidence, which I guess is most commonplace among apologetics. Logic as we see it has proven itself to break down in quantum physics, and it is irrational to think that what we find logical in the middle-world we live in should apply to the universe and existence as a whole.
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10-05-2011, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2011 04:22 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: My story
Did this post seriously kill itself? Or is my phone just stupid?
Yay, my phone was just stupid.
@Seasbury lol, 18 actually. Won't be 19 until the 26th. I realize that I'm young and that I still have many changes to go through. But you also need to recognize (if you don't already which I think you do) that being young doesn't discredit anything I say. Some of the most important lessons we can learn in life are learned from younger generations. Also, I have more than one reason for being here. The first two you listed are among them, however the third is slightly inaccurate. I'm seeking people who care to learn what I have to teach, not converts. After all, a disciple is a student. I can't change anyone's mind, but I can provide information on my side of the debate for anyone who wants it. So, that's one thing I'm doing.
@Stark Raving Yes, it does. My reasoning is this. The supernatural by definition is something that can't be explained using natural means. The only way to prove the supernatural is to break the natural. In the casee of origin of life, the fact that every single theory that doesn't involve a deity presents many more problems than answers and in fact makes life forming seem more like an impossibility is something I see as a break in the natural. Life couldn't have formed naturally. Thus a supernatural force must be behind it. A naturalist thus has no credible explaination for the origins of life because in their eyes the supernatural does not and exist.
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