My story
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10-05-2011, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2011 06:42 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: My story
@hughsie I agree that liking a story isn't re!son to believe it. I was brought up Christian and was always told it was true, so I had no reason to believe it wasn't, but I've still encountered such arguments since. The historicity of the New Testament books is what convinces me of the validity of the story, not just liking it. On to your question. God is eternal. No beginning and no end. I've never thought about something more complicated being required to create something less complicated and I don't think I agree with it. However, the real argument does have to do with complexity and order. In nature (not living) we do see a level of order occurring naturally, like crystaline structures and the like. However, in living organisms the order is at the level of a well written book series and contains more data than the encyclopedia brittanica. That's in an entirely different realm than the very repetitive information or order contained in anything else in the universe. Did that answer your question at all?
(10-05-2011 04:58 AM)Thammuz Wrote:  
(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I didn't care much about the miracles or any supernatural things in the story, but rather about the incredible wisdom and insight that Jesus had.

Read Mark 7:10
I hope you never insulted your parents, because according to this guy you like so much, you should be put to death for it.

Your great example never said anything in opposition to slavery either. Nor does he speak out against beatings, child abuse or genocide.

He's an asshole, even if he did some good thing. He's definately not a role model.

Yes, but also according to the same man I don't have to be because He was put to death in my place. He teaches mercy. "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone.", "Love your neighbor as yourself." He teaches both extremes.
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10-05-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Heart RE: My story
Smile Hello and welcome.

I'd say that at 7 years of age sense wasn't so common. You were growing into yourself and were still just a child. Don't let the wraiths of that unalterable past carry forth and affect your present young life, with the regret you let your brother down in that moment.
At 19 you're still finding yourself. That you have questions and dared venture from what you were raised to be shows you have a great deal of common sense. Otherwise, you'd be closed off and biased and you'd see the world through eyes scaled with the prejudice of one and only way of being, believing and living with yourself and others.
Welcome to the thinking atheist. I think you'll do very well in your life, because you dare to take the first steps out of what's familiar and choose to follow your heart toward the questions, without fear of the answers that may come to light.

Bless you, all your days.
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10-05-2011, 06:52 PM
RE: My story
@Filox The topic was Intelligent Design, not Creationism. Intelligent Design doesn't say that the Earth is young or anything about the Bible even. It simply says that something created life.
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10-05-2011, 09:00 PM
RE: My story
BlackEyedGhost,

I commend you for your love of truth, I consider my love for truth to be the most important value my parents gave me. I have been an atheist longer than you have been alive, in fact at your age I was elected as pastor of a small Pentecostal church. I don't expect that to impress you, but just to give you an idea how much your perspective can change over your lifetime.

The one thing that amazed me about your original post was how much truth you thought you saw in Jesus' words. Do you really think that appreciating the sexiness of a beautiful girl is just as bad as being a home-wrecker? (Matthew 5:27-28) Have you tried excavating mountains by faith? (Matthew 17:20) Do you really think it is wise give no thought as to how you are going to eat, clothe yourself or pay your rent? (Matthew 6:31) The worst teaching of Jesus IMO is his saying that those who don't believe in him deserve eternal torture regardless of what else they may do in life. Could that possibly be the policy of a loving or just God? Where is this truth from Jesus, because I'm not seeing it?

I'm not trying to offend or change you, I'm just trying to get you to think about what you are reading and say "I might find what I like here, but is it true?"

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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11-05-2011, 12:50 AM
RE: My story
Hi BEG... Good to see you again. Your point of view is always insightful to me. I think it is really interesting that you are still on this site. To me it is a strong clue that you are indeed looking for the truth, hope to find it here but not yet satisfied with the answer. I recall a (rather heated) debate with a theist (it might even be you) where someone said "Would you accept the truth if you did not like it..." I like to add: ... or would you keep looking until you found one that suits your "common sense". " Common sense is NOT the same as objective logic you know.

(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I wanted the TRUTH. So any chance I had I would learn. I've relived my experience of being wrong many times and have made a rule that I must accept defeat and be honest. The truth is another name that Jesus is called and in my eyes is a very true assessment of Him. He knew the answers to every problem that had plagued my mind and more. He was my teacher and source of truth. So it's only fitting that the truth be just as important to me as He is. That's what I'm in search of here...
Can you be clearer on your statement? The way I read this is as
I see Jesus as truth so it must be true. What kind of truth are you looking for? The objective truth? I think it is strange to turn to one book/story/person for the truth. That seems really out of proportion to the context of the questions.

(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I can understand how I could look at everything without God, but looking at things in that way doesn't seem rational to me. Thus I'm still here trying to see if it really is irrational or if I am.
What do you see as "being rational"?
To me being irrational is choosing emotions over facts... And to you?

(10-05-2011 12:53 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  In my other thread titled "an argument" I posted my strongest argument against atheism.
I know that post and my ass still hurts from the whooping Smile(not)
What puzzles me is how you jump from that "creation" to Jesus. There are so many creation stories, why is the bible more valid as a source to a creationist explanation then other creation stories?

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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11-05-2011, 12:59 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2011 01:03 AM by Filox.)
RE: My story
I'm starting to notice how non-atheist are simply ignoring me and my posts, am I that bad at explaining thing, or that good? You say we are talking about ID not Creationism, but they are very connected, so I don't see the difference. If you believe that the Earth is 6500 years old, then the only thing that could make us is the ID, if you believe that the Earth is couple of millions, billions years old than you can start to realize how organisms can evolve during such a long, long period.

But the problem with your understanding some things is that you can not grasp the "I don't know" sentence. You say that if we can not explain some thing, you can explain it with something supernatural, aka God. But why can't you say "I/we don't know, YET", we have no equipment powerful enough, we did not evolve enough to understand all the laws of universe, we did not explore enough... You ID people never ever sad that you don't know, you always know everything, everything is God. But that is not the way, that is not how you search for the truth and new evidence, that is the way of the people who already know their answers.

And still I didn't see a single evidence for ID or the age of Earth...

P.S.
I would really like to know why don't you go talk to some Christians who don't believe in ID or Creationism, like Roman-Catholics. Their theologists can answer to a lot of your questions, and they are believers just like you.

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11-05-2011, 01:14 AM
RE: My story
(11-05-2011 12:59 AM)Filox Wrote:  You say we are talking about ID not Creationism, but they are very connected, so I don't see the difference.
I think:
ID is asserting that life was created.
YEC is asserting that life was created like described in the bible.

Observer

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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11-05-2011, 01:51 AM
RE: My story
I know that, but from my perspective it's very similar, both say life was created, meaning by God, not by evolution.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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11-05-2011, 04:06 PM
RE: My story
@BlackEyedGhost Thank You for your response. It answers my question in that I have a clearer understanding of your views but not my question on ID. I understand the meaning of eternal but to say God is eternal doesn't really cover the question for me. Even if he is eternal he is still a complex being who exists without being created, if you get what I mean (I sometimes find it difficult to convey my thoughts on this topic so I apologise if I'm unclear) so the original question still stands unanswered. Furthermore, in the universe as we know it, there exists nothing that is eternal (as far as I know) and so to assume the existence of an eternal being (or anything eternal for that matter) seems a little irrational to me. I would be interested to here your views on this.

Just out of interest, several other people have commented on the idea of not holding a view as opposed to believing in ID. Is this something you have considered and dismissed or something you have yet to consider. I ask because I used to doubt Evolution (I do now believe in it, I think I mostly doubted it as I didn't understand it properly) but rather than jumping to ID I just said to people, if asked, that I was reserving judgement as I was yet to find a satisfactory theory.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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11-05-2011, 04:42 PM
RE: My story
(10-05-2011 06:31 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Yes, but also according to the same man I don't have to be because He was put to death in my place. He teaches mercy. "Let He who is without sin cast the first stone.", "Love your neighbor as yourself." He teaches both extremes.

So, you're actually admitting the bible isn't perfect? And that it has outdated rules?

And if Jesus actually died for our sins, would that be for the past sins? or the future sins too?
-If it's only applicable to the the past sins, the rules should still count, no? Since you weren't there 2000 years ago. And I'm quite sure you're not abiding to every rule in the bible.
-If all future sins are forgiven as well,then why does the original sin still stand for every newborn? And why should we even bother praising god then? Hey, his son said it was all ok.

Furthermore, you completely ignored what I said about slavery and such. He never tried to abolish it and his death on the cross has nothing to do with the regulations of slavery.

You're just cherry picking and believing what you want to believe. It's not based on any scientific fact. The bible is full of contradictions. And if you had taken the time to read any worthy history book, you'd know the story of Jesus was stolen from other religions.

Use your own brain for a change and for the love of Good, open your eyes. We're not in the stone age anymore.

"Infinitus est numerus stultorum." (The number of fools is infinite)
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