My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
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08-05-2014, 07:26 PM
My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
Ok, first of all I'm not an atheist. Wait, don't hit the close button yet! I'm not a believer either. I will try to explain my beliefs here, or rather the lack of any.
Ok, so I'm an engineering student 3rd year, my field is Electronics. I'm also interested in physics, and pretty much in everything that can be described with mathematical equations, because If anything is eternal and omnipotent, omnipresent and all, it is mathematics. I think we all agree on that here...
Well I already mentioned I am not an atheist. I don't discard the idea of the universe being a product of some intelligent interference. NOT the common idea of intelligent design with the “Let there be light!” and how God created everything in a week, and Adam and Eve, and the tree of knowledge, and the First Sin, and ALL THAT NONSENCE! It's clearly... oh, how do I put this... Well it's bullshit. I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's just how it is. And in my country, Bulgaria, we learn the old testimony, and the new one in school, briefly, but still we do... Ok, moving on...
By intelligent interference I mean the idea that something, lets call it God for convenience, did something which caused the universe to pop into existence. Ok, if there are theists reading this, who are now smiling, thinking I'm on their side – just keep on reading, you are in for a nasty surprise. By the universe I mean the universe as a whole system, not the individual parts of it. It is clear as day that since the universe began it is... well pretty much it is creating itself without any God.
About what created man... I am not even going to mention how insanely stupid is to not believe in evolution, saying it is only a theory. Oops... I mentioned it. It's like not believing in gravity saying it is just a theory. Well it is not. Gravity is a fact. There are theories about how it works, but it is a fact that it is there.
Ookay, so I don't discard God. Pretty bold thing to say in a forum like this one, right?Here I want to make myself perfectly clear – not discarding the idea is not the same as believing it. What I am trying to say is I don't believe in any of the two possibilities. Science has not yet found a proof that God exists. But then again it hasn't found the proof that He doesn't. Hell, there is no proof that we don't live in a simulation. Don't get me wrong. I am not an atheist, but I want to be one. The second science come up with an equation that prove that there is no God, I will embrace it. I actually look forward to it. But before that, my faith lies in the numbers.
Ok, that is good, but this being an atheist forum and all, I can't stop myself from sharing some questions that will surely interest you.
So this year I am trying to write a library for simulation of artificial neural networks, and while studying them I became very interested how the human mind, and how conciousness works. So naturally I asked myself, what is conciousness? Well if you think about it, conciousness does not exist. What we call conciousness is merely a response of a system. In this case our brains. Very complex system indeed, but still conciousness is nothing more than a mathematical function, and our senses, the stimuli, are its parameters. And the brain makes it possible for all the computations to be done. So here is the paradox that puzzles me. If God is conciousness, how does he exist without a system that will do the necessary computations and information processing? Let me guess – supernatural...
Now the second question. It is said that God created everything from nothing. Yeah, in that damn book they keep shoving in our faces – the Holy Bible. Well as I said I like mathematics, so lets think in mathematics here. What is nothing mathematically, and what is everything? Well that is easy – zero is nothing. And everything then should be the sum of all the numbers there are. Well isn't this sum zero? Then it turns out that there is no actual difference between everything and nothing. Of course this is just a mere game with words, but think about it, what is the universe if not information, and what is the most basic way of representing information if not mathematics? So if you picture the universe as every possible pattern of information that can be, if you represent each pattern with a mathematical model, and if you fuse those patterns together, will it not be everything and nothing at the same time that you will get? So, one of the implications is that what we see is definitely not everything. The other is that God did not create all there is, because it was already there.
Finally I want to ask Christians this. Your God is supposed to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Answer this then – why would a being like this give a metaphysical shit about you and your prayers? I mean, there are pretty interesting things out there, and you forget how vast the universe is. You are but an anthill on the construction site of His plan... I pity you, I really do.
Last I will say this – The question whether there is a God or not is irrelevant. From engineering I know this – when I ask myself the same question for more than week, I ask myself the wrong question. For how long have we been asking about God? For millennia. What is our reward? Frustration and time wasted. For how long have we been listening to reason. Merely for several hundred years. What is our reward. Computers, power plants, vehicles, spacecraft.
To understand is to control. To blindly believe in something you do not understand is to be controlled.
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08-05-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
Hang on a minute...

You don't believe in God, but you don't rule him out.

That is atheism... Its called "agnostic atheism" as opposed to "gnostic atheism" where it is held to be definite that there is no God.

I am an "agnostic atheist"... I sincerely doubt God exists, but I can't completely rule it out.

You have to realize that there is never going to be proof God doesn't exist... Because there's never proof anything doesn't exist.

Because (here's the paradoxical bit), for there to be evidence either for or against something's existence, the thing in question would have to exist in order to leave that evidence.

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08-05-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
Well, I guess you are right. It is my first post here. Got a little bit lost in my own thoughts Smile
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08-05-2014, 08:13 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
(08-05-2014 08:09 PM)Dobrev Wrote:  Well, I guess you are right. It is my first post here. Got a little bit lost in my own thoughts Smile

Well... That's probably how the Bible was written. Big Grin

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08-05-2014, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2014 10:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
"Intelligent interference" is incoherent and devoid of meaning.
"Interfered" in what ?
It presupposes an already extant Reality.
It presupposes already extant Causality.
It presupposes already extant absolute time. ("Doing" requires time.)
"Intelligent interference" explains nothing.
Sorry.

Welcome to the nuthouse. Confused

I sort of agree about consciousness. Sensory input rapidly referenced to (chemical/molecular) memory. That produces the *sensation* of consciousness. But it's actually not a "present" reality. However small, there is a lag between the processing and organization in the brain of the input, so what appears to a brain to be "the present" is really already the past. But the point about "If God is conciousness, how does he exist without a system that will do the necessary computations and information processing?" is interesting. is basically the same objection I voiced above. There is no definition of a god that is coherent, which does not invoke a larger reality in which it *must* exist, therefore cannot be the creator of the very reality it requires for the definition to make sense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-05-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
(08-05-2014 08:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
"Intelligent interference" explains nothing.
Sorry.
...

Maybe, but it sure is a good description for the behaviour of my boss (and my ex-wife for that matter)

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08-05-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
(08-05-2014 07:26 PM)Dobrev Wrote:  If God is conciousness, how does he exist without a system that will do the necessary computations and information processing?

He exists within our human brains. You already went through how they do the computations and such. Thumbsup

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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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08-05-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
Hi there and welcome to the forums Smile. You made a very good post, lots of neat ideas, even if they are rather loosely related. I think you will find the majority of people here share your view on god and the universe.

As a special plea, it would be nice if you organized your writing into paragraphs. Your English is very good, but a wall of text can be hard to read without a little formatting Heart .
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09-05-2014, 12:29 AM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
WELCOME!

Agreed on the agnostic atheist comment (though I'll nudge the OP to looking into ignosticism... the idea that the God-claim is insufficiently defined to be considered), agreed on the paragraphs comment (though double-space between paragraphs might be a more suitable request).

But all that's BORING. Let's talk math!

Why should "nothing" be 0? Why not go to computational theory and use the empty string ε? Or better yet, the empty set ∅? We can actually MAKE stuff from ∅. We can have a set containing it, and sets containing that, and so on. We can get ∅, and {∅}, and {∅, {∅}}, and so on. (Some mathematicians (I forget which ones) actually attempted to define the natural numbers in terms of these sets during the foundational crisis.) If you're going to make something out of nothing... yes, I'm being absurd here, but it's a fun absurd... the empty set seems like a better candidate for the nothing building material than the number 0.

.... oh, hey, look at that. I just made something (an argument) out of nothing (as a subject).
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09-05-2014, 05:45 AM
RE: My thoughts on the whole Atheists vs. Theists argument
At first I was like

[Image: 1794695_669566083079558_5797916255709057302_n.jpg]

and then I was like Confused

but now I'm like Tongue

You're one of them.

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