My thoughts on this debate
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05-02-2014, 10:15 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 10:22 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(04-02-2014 08:49 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  ... The first is the problems with dating. I'd like to point out that when it came I have also noticed what ken ham is moving towards, PRESUPPOSITIONAL APOLOGETICS. Thats right he trying to go there. It seems that ken has had his claims debunked to much. Hell I'm still in high school and I can even debunk his claims. So in reality he would really like to move in that direction but if he did he would have lost automatically and showed bill was better. ...

I found this in Answers in Genesis on what arguments not to use by Creationist. I find it interesting. Seems to be where they are slowly admitting they can no longer compete in the debate, so they inform them to give these subjects up with debating science.

Here is a list from AiG, but there are links on most of the numbers listed below if you want to got to the site (link above) and check them out more closely. I haven't included those links here. But this is the general list:


"Arguments that should never be used

1.Moon dust thickness proves a young moon.
2.The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall. (If so, how could Adam and Eve have eaten and digested their food that they were told to eat before the Fall?)
3.NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” (Joshua 10) and Hezekiah’s sundial movement (2 Kings 20).
4.There are no beneficial mutations.
5.Darwin recanted on his deathbed.
6.Woolly mammoths were flash frozen during the Flood catastrophe.
7.If we evolved from apes, apes shouldn’t exist today. (In an evolutionary worldview, mankind did not evolve from apes but from an apelike ancestor, from which both humans and apes of today supposedly evolved.)
8.No new species have been produced.
9.Ron Wyatt has found much archeological proof of the Bible.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalidated aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)

1.Evolution is just a theory. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)
2.Microevolution is true but not macroevolution. (People usually mean that we see changes within a kind but not between kinds; however, the important distinction is that we observe changes that do not increase the genetic information in an organism.)
3.There was a water vapor canopy surrounding earth before the Flood.
4.Mitochondrial Eve is only 6000 years old.
5.The Gospel is in the stars.
6.The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand. (Later research showed it to be a basking shark.)
7.The earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood. (Genesis 1:14 reveals seasons did exist prior to the Flood.)
8.Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.
9.Stars are closer than we are led to believe.
10.There was no rain before the Flood. (Genesis 2:4–6, a passage commonly used to support this, is speaking of Creation Week, prior to the creation of man. It may not be wise to assume this projects into the future until the Flood.)
11.The speed of light has decreased over time.
12.There are no transitional forms. (It would be better to say there are no intermediates between two different kinds. We find variant transitional fossils for animals within the same kind—horse to a horse for example but that is expected in a biblical worldview.)

Common misconceptions/misunderstandings

1.Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents. (How could the mountains of Ararat in Genesis 8:4 have existed on Day 150 of the Flood for the Ark to land in, if the Eurasian, African, and Arabian plates had not collided to form these mountains yet?)
2.The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology. (Methuselah would have lived 17 years after the Flood without being on the Ark. This is a problem.)
3.The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.
4.Man could only live to 120 years as per Genesis 6:3. (Then how could many of Noah’s descendants outlive 120 years, including Abraham? This makes better sense as a countdown to the Flood.)
5.The Intelligent Design Movement is a Christian movement.
6.Women have one more rib than men.
7.Archaeopteryx is a fraud.
8.The Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s house to produce Bibles. (This has never been verified.)
[Editor’s note: For your convenience, links are given to some articles presently on the website that discuss the topic. We hope in the months ahead to readdress many of these issues and provide the most current thinking on each. During this process, we will be expanding these lists to include more items. Check back for updates.]"

...
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05-02-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:15 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 08:49 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  ... The first is the problems with dating. I'd like to point out that when it came I have also noticed what ken ham is moving towards, PRESUPPOSITIONAL APOLOGETICS. Thats right he trying to go there. It seems that ken has had his claims debunked to much. Hell I'm still in high school and I can even debunk his claims. So in reality he would really like to move in that direction but if he did he would have lost automatically and showed bill was better. ...

I found this in Answers in Genesis on what arguments not to use by Creationist. I find it interesting. Seems to be where they are slowly admitting they can no longer compete in the debate, so they inform them to give these subjects up with debating science.

Here is a list from AiG, but there are links on most of the numbers listed below if you want to got to the site (link above) and check them out more closely. I haven't included those links here. But this is the general list:


"Arguments that should never be used

1.Moon dust thickness proves a young moon.
2.The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall. (If so, how could Adam and Eve have eaten and digested their food that they were told to eat before the Fall?)
3.NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” (Joshua 10) and Hezekiah’s sundial movement (2 Kings 20).
4.There are no beneficial mutations.
5.Darwin recanted on his deathbed.
6.Woolly mammoths were flash frozen during the Flood catastrophe.
7.If we evolved from apes, apes shouldn’t exist today. (In an evolutionary worldview, mankind did not evolve from apes but from an apelike ancestor, from which both humans and apes of today supposedly evolved.)
8.No new species have been produced.
9.Ron Wyatt has found much archeological proof of the Bible.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalidated aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)

1.Evolution is just a theory. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)
2.Microevolution is true but not macroevolution. (People usually mean that we see changes within a kind but not between kinds; however, the important distinction is that we observe changes that do not increase the genetic information in an organism.)
3.There was a water vapor canopy surrounding earth before the Flood.
4.Mitochondrial Eve is only 6000 years old.
5.The Gospel is in the stars.
6.The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand. (Later research showed it to be a basking shark.)
7.The earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood. (Genesis 1:14 reveals seasons did exist prior to the Flood.)
8.Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.9.Stars are closer than we are led to believe.
10.There was no rain before the Flood. (Genesis 2:4–6, a passage commonly used to support this, is speaking of Creation Week, prior to the creation of man. It may not be wise to assume this projects into the future until the Flood.)
11.The speed of light has decreased over time.
12.There are no transitional forms. (It would be better to say there are no intermediates between two different kinds. We find variant transitional fossils for animals within the same kind—horse to a horse for example but that is expected in a biblical worldview.)

Common misconceptions/misunderstandings

1.Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents. (How could the mountains of Ararat in Genesis 8:4 have existed on Day 150 of the Flood for the Ark to land in, if the Eurasian, African, and Arabian plates had not collided to form these mountains yet?)
2.The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology. (Methuselah would have lived 17 years after the Flood without being on the Ark. This is a problem.)
3.The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.
4.Man could only live to 120 years as per Genesis 6:3. (Then how could many of Noah’s descendants outlive 120 years, including Abraham? This makes better sense as a countdown to the Flood.)
5.The Intelligent Design Movement is a Christian movement.
6.Women have one more rib than men.
7.Archaeopteryx is a fraud.
8.The Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s house to produce Bibles. (This has never been verified.)
[Editor’s note: For your convenience, links are given to some articles presently on the website that discuss the topic. We hope in the months ahead to readdress many of these issues and provide the most current thinking on each. During this process, we will be expanding these lists to include more items. Check back for updates.]"

Whew...religion for dummies? Through my conversations on FB today about the debate, I've learned that a lot of theists didn't know that the bible said the earth wasn't billions of years old, almost none of them know who Ken Ham is, and only a few knew about ANYTHING that was mentioned during the hours of debate...which is sad. So, basically, religion is a lack of education...brainwashing right? But you can't tell them that, bc their god is gonna get me for it Tongue

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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05-02-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
Found this from the ID-fans.

Refreshingly balanced review of the debate.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution...am-debate/

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05-02-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
This is supposedly what a few creationists at the debate had to say...number 15 (and the repeated use of the word THEIR vs THEY'RE or THERE) makes me want to shake the shit out of these people!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-...n-evolutio

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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05-02-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:23 AM)kellyrm Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 10:15 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I found this in Answers in Genesis on what arguments not to use by Creationist. I find it interesting. Seems to be where they are slowly admitting they can no longer compete in the debate, so they inform them to give these subjects up with debating science.

Here is a list from AiG, but there are links on most of the numbers listed below if you want to got to the site (link above) and check them out more closely. I haven't included those links here. But this is the general list:


"Arguments that should never be used

1.Moon dust thickness proves a young moon.
2.The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall. (If so, how could Adam and Eve have eaten and digested their food that they were told to eat before the Fall?)
3.NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” (Joshua 10) and Hezekiah’s sundial movement (2 Kings 20).
4.There are no beneficial mutations.
5.Darwin recanted on his deathbed.
6.Woolly mammoths were flash frozen during the Flood catastrophe.
7.If we evolved from apes, apes shouldn’t exist today. (In an evolutionary worldview, mankind did not evolve from apes but from an apelike ancestor, from which both humans and apes of today supposedly evolved.)
8.No new species have been produced.
9.Ron Wyatt has found much archeological proof of the Bible.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalidated aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)

1.Evolution is just a theory. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)
2.Microevolution is true but not macroevolution. (People usually mean that we see changes within a kind but not between kinds; however, the important distinction is that we observe changes that do not increase the genetic information in an organism.)
3.There was a water vapor canopy surrounding earth before the Flood.
4.Mitochondrial Eve is only 6000 years old.
5.The Gospel is in the stars.
6.The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand. (Later research showed it to be a basking shark.)
7.The earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood. (Genesis 1:14 reveals seasons did exist prior to the Flood.)
8.Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.9.Stars are closer than we are led to believe.
10.There was no rain before the Flood. (Genesis 2:4–6, a passage commonly used to support this, is speaking of Creation Week, prior to the creation of man. It may not be wise to assume this projects into the future until the Flood.)
11.The speed of light has decreased over time.
12.There are no transitional forms. (It would be better to say there are no intermediates between two different kinds. We find variant transitional fossils for animals within the same kind—horse to a horse for example but that is expected in a biblical worldview.)

Common misconceptions/misunderstandings

1.Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents. (How could the mountains of Ararat in Genesis 8:4 have existed on Day 150 of the Flood for the Ark to land in, if the Eurasian, African, and Arabian plates had not collided to form these mountains yet?)
2.The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology. (Methuselah would have lived 17 years after the Flood without being on the Ark. This is a problem.)
3.The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.
4.Man could only live to 120 years as per Genesis 6:3. (Then how could many of Noah’s descendants outlive 120 years, including Abraham? This makes better sense as a countdown to the Flood.)
5.The Intelligent Design Movement is a Christian movement.
6.Women have one more rib than men.
7.Archaeopteryx is a fraud.
8.The Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s house to produce Bibles. (This has never been verified.)
[Editor’s note: For your convenience, links are given to some articles presently on the website that discuss the topic. We hope in the months ahead to readdress many of these issues and provide the most current thinking on each. During this process, we will be expanding these lists to include more items. Check back for updates.]"

Whew...religion for dummies? Through my conversations on FB today about the debate, I've learned that a lot of theists didn't know that the bible said the earth wasn't billions of years old, almost none of them know who Ken Ham is, and only a few knew about ANYTHING that was mentioned during the hours of debate...which is sad. So, basically, religion is a lack of education...brainwashing right? But you can't tell them that, bc their god is gonna get me for it Tongue

In my experiences with my wifes family is that they love, and absolutely relish the position of ignorance. They do not want to learn about what smart people have to say on how the world works. There is almost a pride factor, or some kind of assurance that the less they know, the happier and better off their life will be. Goes against what the human mind has become and and how it can be used. Can't get educated without any willingness to do so - DISGUSTING!

I am beginning to side with those who call it a "sickness of the mind". Screw the believe what you want approach, sick in the head is what it is.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-02-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Found this from the ID-fans.

Refreshingly balanced review of the debate.

http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution...am-debate/

idk about balanced...but meh, it's more balance than you'll get from anybody here Smile

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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05-02-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:34 AM)kellyrm Wrote:  This is supposedly what a few creationists at the debate had to say...number 15 (and the repeated use of the word THEIR vs THEY'RE or THERE) makes me want to shake the shit out of these people!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-...n-evolutio

Just the looks on most of their faces makes me want to plant the back end of a shovel to them. Should be called "messages from idoits". And #15, science is not testable? WTFF?!?!?!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-02-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:40 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 10:34 AM)kellyrm Wrote:  This is supposedly what a few creationists at the debate had to say...number 15 (and the repeated use of the word THEIR vs THEY'RE or THERE) makes me want to shake the shit out of these people!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-...n-evolutio

Just the looks on most of their faces makes me want to plant the back end of a shovel to them. Should be called "messages from idoits". And #15, science is not testable? WTFF?!?!?!

That's going around on FB right now...and these brainwashed fools are commenting "amen" and all this other bullshit to it...sometimes it's hard to know for sure if I'm the crazy one or if there's really that many stupid people out there! Hand me a shover too, please!

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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05-02-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
I caught the beginning and need to finish tonight. I did find the whole visual presentation aspect of the debate to be different, and somewhat an "over the top attention getting" scheme. Hitch, Harris, and Dawkins never need 100 ppt slides to get their point across. Also, the scientists that were shown to be creationists never elaborate on what science they use to support the creation concept. Can't wait to finish watching.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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05-02-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: My thoughts on this debate
(05-02-2014 10:47 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I caught the beginning and need to finish tonight. I did find the whole visual presentation aspect of the debate to be different, and somewhat an "over the top attention getting" scheme. Hitch, Harris, and Dawkins never need 100 ppt slides to get their point across. Also, the scientists that were shown to be creationists never elaborate on what science they use to support the creation concept. Can't wait to finish watching.

It gets better~some of those slides are the only "proof" offered Tongue I'm gonna make my husband sit down tonight and watch it, might do him some good since he's religious out of plain ignorance Tongue

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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