My transgender daughter.....
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15-07-2013, 05:55 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
WoW......kudos to you both for your courage . Your girl is way lucky to have you.

If you or she need a place for trans* resources and a support forum, you can look up Susan's Place Transgender Resources.

But make no mistake about it, we're mighty glad you're here & hope you'll stay Smile

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15-07-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
(15-07-2013 04:09 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Allright.
All the previous posters here agree with your actions and have commended you for it.
While I must indeed applaud you for supporting someone through a time of need: this is still a forum. And, in it's very nature, is meant for discussion.
I feel the need to pose an opposing view.

Please remember that this is not meant personal, but general.

You wrote that you faced criticism. I picture this as coming from the same kind of people that criticize atheists for "turning to a highway to hell". And I commend you for withstanding that. Peer-pressure can be very strong.

I myself am against the practice of gendertransformation.
I believe that it is going too far.
We draw a very fine line when it comes to psychological (or psychiatrical, I am not a doctor so I will stick with the first) issues.
When someone things they can fly and they want to jump off of buildings, we don't rationalise the same way. They are not fitted with wings. (Delusional)
When someone thinks they should not have a right leg, arm or breast, we do not rationalise the same way and amputate that bodypart. (Body Dismorphic disorder).
When someone talks to "dead people" or sees things, anything from objects to "aura's", we do not perpetually analyse their eyes. (hallucinations).

Then why, when someone says they are a different gender, do we let them take dozens of surgeries and chemical/medicinal treatments to, in essence, put more time, money and effort into their bodies than is spent on the reconstruction of a sizeable house?

I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.

To your specific case: Your child had other symptoms as well. You wrote about hearing voices and paranoia and described those as being seperate and unrelated.
I am not a doctor, so feel free to completely ignore this sentence: but that sounds to me that there just might be a deeper root-cause. One might have led to the other.

Again: I do not condone the actions of your child individually.
I do not criticize you as parents. Your child was 18, a legal adult and took his (at the time) own choices.
I just believe that because medical science has allowed us to come so far as to be ABLE to do something, it doesn't mean that we SHOULD. We stop medical science in a great many ways, all of them less severe than this practice.

I would also like to know more about your and your husbands' thoughtprocess in the matter. From the moment that of the first conversation to, say, now.

@moderator-team: Please feel free to split this into a seperate topic if you believe it doesn't belong.

As you pointed out my daughter was hearing voices and became very paranoid and at the time my husband and I felt that the then diagnosed schizophrenia was the main problem and that the Gender Identity was secondary to the problem. We felt that she was delusional from the schizophrenia and believed herself to be female. She was put on anti-psychotics which was quickly effective and in time the doses were lowered. When she decided to start taking low dose estrogen (transgender people always start out on a low dose) the anti-phychotics were completely stopped and the voices and paranoia haven't returned . We found a new psychologist who has worked with both schizophrenics and transgender people for many years and in many parts of the world. Her experience was extensive and she has many transgender patients who have suffered from such depression that it becomes psychotic i.e. hearing voices and paranoia but had previously been diagnosed with schizophrenia. She had seen the same scenario too many and knew exactly what had happened with the diagnosis.

As for your opinions on being transgender, it is truly complex but it is much, much more than just "feeling" female. There are various male and female markers that indicate how much testosterone and estrogen one is exposed to during gestation. Finger length is one of several. It's not 100% true in every case but a pretty good indicator.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...men-women/

My daughter's hands are extremely female more so than even mine. (I'm female.) Which indicates that she was exposed to a high rate of estrogen in the womb.

There is also a difference between the female brain and male brain and many scientists are seeing differences in those who are transgender as having the opposite brain in a very specific area. so when you hear a transgender person say "I feel as if I'm in the wrong body" it actually is physically true.

Caveman, there are also people who are born intersexed. This is someone who is male but was born with underdeveloped female organs or females that have underdeveloped male genitals. It's not totally uncommon either and there are various conditions that are considered an intersexed birth and different levels of the condition.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

There are also people who are xxy or yyx or even triple x. I think it's on the list in the link I just posted. So Mother Nature isn't perfect.

I find it interesting that in many areas of the world where they worship many gods and especially gods who transform themselves into different animals and genders, those cultures aren't as black and white regarding male and female. They have a bit more acceptance of a variety of genders. In our western culture where we have one god who is completely male you are either male or female and the twain shall never meet or blend. Here in the west one should aspire to be John Wayne or Marilyn Monroe, the pinnacle of each gender. Anything else is almost unexceptable.

It is almost always the case that people who transition to the opposite sex after much thought and therapy are much happier. People don't want to hear this though. They want to hear that they are more miserable. I don't understand why.

Actually most of the problems that transgender people have isn't with their transformation to the other sex, it's from the prejudice that they have to contend with. However, these days the younger one transitions the better the outcome both physically, emotionally and mentally. In perhaps a year from now I don't think anyone would even notice that the tall, beautiful girl walking down the street is anything but perhaps a model or just a lovely person.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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15-07-2013, 07:07 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
Thank you for your story. Stories like these restore my faith in humanity little by little. The world has a lot to learn from parents like you guys.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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15-07-2013, 07:19 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
(15-07-2013 11:10 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  ... Oh, what she has been through, what we have been through as a family is amazing and I just wanted to spill my heart out somewhere and, so....... here it is.

Now that is how proper parenting is just fuckin' properly done. Kudos. Thumbsup

Coincidentally, tonight's episode of TNT's show Major Crimes entitled "Boys Will Be Boys" leads with a missing transgender teen being sexually assaulted and bullied.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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15-07-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
This is something I have difficulty with. I just don't know what to do with it in my head. I don't dislike transgendered people, I don't wish to impose any kind of rule or law that would restrict them in any way, it is just hard for me to wrap my mind around. I understand that some people are born feeling like the sex which they aren't. Perhaps it is just a lack of exposure. I have never knowingly met someone who had changed genders before. I just wish I had some frame of reference, it is difficult for me to really grasp it. I admit, I just don't fully understand it, but I am glad that we have great moms like yourself on the forum. Although I am a bit ignorant on the topic, I do know that if I were someone whose gender wasn't right, I'd be a very lucky person to have you as a mom. Kudos to you.

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15-07-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
That is some fabulous parenting. Hugs to you.

I know a lot of transpeople who were not so lucky when it came to family acceptance (I have a lot of trans friends because I identified as [non-op] FTM during my 20s, but now I don't identify as either male or female).

The links are interesting and I've read a lot of gender studies books, and I'm still not sure what to make of certain things.
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15-07-2013, 08:29 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
(15-07-2013 07:46 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  This is something I have difficulty with. I just don't know what to do with it in my head. I don't dislike transgendered people, I don't wish to impose any kind of rule or law that would restrict them in any way, it is just hard for me to wrap my mind around. I understand that some people are born feeling like the sex which they aren't. Perhaps it is just a lack of exposure. I have never knowingly met someone who had changed genders before. I just wish I had some frame of reference, it is difficult for me to really grasp it. I admit, I just don't fully understand it, but I am glad that we have great moms like yourself on the forum. Although I am a bit ignorant on the topic, I do know that if I were someone whose gender wasn't right, I'd be a very lucky person to have you as a mom. Kudos to you.


Truthfully, in the beginning I felt the same way you do and the way many people do. I just couldn't wrap my head around it but in researching the hormone exposure during gestation and the difference it makes in the development of the brain I began to understand. I spent hundreds of hours pouring over any information I could find and when I placed the information next to my daughter, it all fit. At one point she told me that she didn't choose to be transgender, that it wasn't even a decision that had to be made. It just was. Did you make the decision to feel male or female? No one does, we just are.

I will again post the link to just one bit of information on hormones in fetal development. It's important to realize that there are cell receptors in the brain that send signals during developing stages and if there is a lack of testosterone or an excess of estrogen things in the brain can change.

This is information on the length of our fingers from exposure to testosterone or estrogen in the womb. It effect many things in a developing child, not just the size of the ring and index finger.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...men-women/

Of course, everyone will be looking at their hands for the next few minutes.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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15-07-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
(15-07-2013 08:29 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Of course, everyone will be looking at their hands for the next few minutes.
Haha, I wonder what the stats are there... My ring finger is almost a whole knuckle longer than my index, though.

Caveman Wrote:I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.
People don't just make the decision to transition on a whim. And they aren't going to force cisgendered people to transition against their will, so I don't really see why it's anyone else's concern. Why be against something that doesn't affect you, and makes the person in question feel better about themself and more comfortable in their own skin? Why are you the one who should be able to arbitrarily "draw the line" on what other people can do with their identity and body? I can understand transpeople, but I can't understand transphobia at all. And for people who surgically transition, there is usually a long period of psych evaluation as well as a long time spent living as the other gender to make sure it's really what they want.
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16-07-2013, 03:44 AM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
I never met anyone with this "problem", not yet, so I can really say how would I react/act. As much as I try, it still all sounds strange and weird to me, but I would not discriminate, shun or hate one for being as they are. I am in fact very interested in talking to transgender people. Don't know why, maybe I really want to understand them.

I want to congratulate you, you are the supportive type of parents that might just have saved your sons/daughters life. You are good persons, the ones that the rest of us must look up to.

This being said, I tried talking to my parents about this gay thing, transgender thing, similar topics and when I thought they would be normal about it, it seems my parents are really stupid and backwards when it comes to these questions. It surprised me, I always had a feeling my parents are going to be normal about it, but I was wrong. They think it is a a disease. Luckily, I didn't have sex/gender issues in my life, so it was only a talk with them, I hate to think what would I have to go through if I had to really rely on my parents. They would probably still try to treat me will all sorts of medicine and therapy and they would be sure that they are only helping me...

So I'll say it again. Congratulations. You are both great parents.

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16-07-2013, 03:57 AM
RE: My transgender daughter.....
(15-07-2013 05:58 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 04:09 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Allright.
All the previous posters here agree with your actions and have commended you for it.
While I must indeed applaud you for supporting someone through a time of need: this is still a forum. And, in it's very nature, is meant for discussion.
I feel the need to pose an opposing view.

Please remember that this is not meant personal, but general.

You wrote that you faced criticism. I picture this as coming from the same kind of people that criticize atheists for "turning to a highway to hell". And I commend you for withstanding that. Peer-pressure can be very strong.

I myself am against the practice of gendertransformation.
I believe that it is going too far.
We draw a very fine line when it comes to psychological (or psychiatrical, I am not a doctor so I will stick with the first) issues.
When someone things they can fly and they want to jump off of buildings, we don't rationalise the same way. They are not fitted with wings. (Delusional)
When someone thinks they should not have a right leg, arm or breast, we do not rationalise the same way and amputate that bodypart. (Body Dismorphic disorder).
When someone talks to "dead people" or sees things, anything from objects to "aura's", we do not perpetually analyse their eyes. (hallucinations).

Then why, when someone says they are a different gender, do we let them take dozens of surgeries and chemical/medicinal treatments to, in essence, put more time, money and effort into their bodies than is spent on the reconstruction of a sizeable house?

I believe that though we might be ABLE to, a line should be drawn. And that any man who thinks they are a woman (and vice versa) should be treated exactly the same way as someone who wants their arm amputated because they truly and utterly believe that it should not be there.

To your specific case: Your child had other symptoms as well. You wrote about hearing voices and paranoia and described those as being seperate and unrelated.
I am not a doctor, so feel free to completely ignore this sentence: but that sounds to me that there just might be a deeper root-cause. One might have led to the other.

Again: I do not condone the actions of your child individually.
I do not criticize you as parents. Your child was 18, a legal adult and took his (at the time) own choices.
I just believe that because medical science has allowed us to come so far as to be ABLE to do something, it doesn't mean that we SHOULD. We stop medical science in a great many ways, all of them less severe than this practice.

I would also like to know more about your and your husbands' thoughtprocess in the matter. From the moment that of the first conversation to, say, now.

@moderator-team: Please feel free to split this into a seperate topic if you believe it doesn't belong.

As you pointed out my daughter was hearing voices and became very paranoid and at the time my husband and I felt that the then diagnosed schizophrenia was the main problem and that the Gender Identity was secondary to the problem. We felt that she was delusional from the schizophrenia and believed herself to be female. She was put on anti-psychotics which was quickly effective and in time the doses were lowered. When she decided to start taking low dose estrogen (transgender people always start out on a low dose) the anti-phychotics were completely stopped and the voices and paranoia haven't returned . We found a new psychologist who has worked with both schizophrenics and transgender people for many years and in many parts of the world. Her experience was extensive and she has many transgender patients who have suffered from such depression that it becomes psychotic i.e. hearing voices and paranoia but had previously been diagnosed with schizophrenia. She had seen the same scenario too many and knew exactly what had happened with the diagnosis.

As for your opinions on being transgender, it is truly complex but it is much, much more than just "feeling" female. There are various male and female markers that indicate how much testosterone and estrogen one is exposed to during gestation. Finger length is one of several. It's not 100% true in every case but a pretty good indicator.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...men-women/

My daughter's hands are extremely female more so than even mine. (I'm female.) Which indicates that she was exposed to a high rate of estrogen in the womb.

There is also a difference between the female brain and male brain and many scientists are seeing differences in those who are transgender as having the opposite brain in a very specific area. so when you hear a transgender person say "I feel as if I'm in the wrong body" it actually is physically true.

Caveman, there are also people who are born intersexed. This is someone who is male but was born with underdeveloped female organs or females that have underdeveloped male genitals. It's not totally uncommon either and there are various conditions that are considered an intersexed birth and different levels of the condition.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

There are also people who are xxy or yyx or even triple x. I think it's on the list in the link I just posted. So Mother Nature isn't perfect.

I find it interesting that in many areas of the world where they worship many gods and especially gods who transform themselves into different animals and genders, those cultures aren't as black and white regarding male and female. They have a bit more acceptance of a variety of genders. In our western culture where we have one god who is completely male you are either male or female and the twain shall never meet or blend. Here in the west one should aspire to be John Wayne or Marilyn Monroe, the pinnacle of each gender. Anything else is almost unexceptable.

It is almost always the case that people who transition to the opposite sex after much thought and therapy are much happier. People don't want to hear this though. They want to hear that they are more miserable. I don't understand why.

Actually most of the problems that transgender people have isn't with their transformation to the other sex, it's from the prejudice that they have to contend with. However, these days the younger one transitions the better the outcome both physically, emotionally and mentally. In perhaps a year from now I don't think anyone would even notice that the tall, beautiful girl walking down the street is anything but perhaps a model or just a lovely person.

First of all, thank you for writing a thorough reply.

There is not much more that I can say about the case of your child, since we are now getting into some very advanced medicine.
You describe the gestation-process and the development of children.
It's true. All development is different and you bring some very clear links with clear articles to the table.
Gestation sure is weird. You probably already know that all fetuses start out as female and develop male characteristics, testes to be specific, after 8 weeks.
(also, around the 5th month, we have a full coat of fur).
But while these articles are compelling and persuading that it CAN be done. It doesn't speak to my personal point that it SHOULD be done.

I am a strong believer in playing the cards that we are dealt. Everyone faces adversity. But no one gets as much treatment and leeway as the people in this subject.
For the longest time, people say Michael Jackson had his skin bleached so he wouldn't face racial prejudice.
The sheer thought of it was offensive on many levels. It is said that skin-bleaching is not even possible. But if there would be as much research into that subject as there was in this, I'm sure it could probably done.
But we as a society choose not to.

I also like your reference to other parts of the world where deities transform into different genders and animals and how that might give people a different perspective.
But don't forget, in islam and hindu for instance: a man, who is dominant, will never undergo such a procedure to transform into a woman. Purely out of selfpreservation. As a woman, he/she would become little more than property. A house slave that is also supposed to bare children.
People who are potentially afflicted would probably keep it to themselves their entire lives. They probably couldn't even get psychological counseling on the matter in, for instance, Iran or India.

I wonder if there is research on transgender-trends around the world.
Because coming out as transgender, just as coming out as atheist, is far easier to do if you know there are others that think the same way.

I should add, on a personal note, that I consider myself to be a libertarian. In short: people should be allowed to make their own choices. If people will drink, they will drink and live with the consequences. Same for drugs, abortion, crime etc. etc.
And I know that what I have written in this topic last night and this morning completely contradicts that. I still feel strongly about some boundaries.

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