My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
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29-04-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 07:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 07:19 AM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Who me and that kid? I really don't care what some fat basement dwelling kid who trolls atheist forums all day has to say to me. I blocked him.


Facepalm


Szuchow was at worst a bit terse, but not rude. Minimalist gave his honest opinion. From what I can tell, they where the only two in the entire thread that said something that could be seen as disparaging to the character of your uncle, to which you responded...

"Sorry, I shouldn't have said he's smart, because apparently I'm getting a bunch of people who think that, apparently, me saying so somehow means I think I'm okay with his points of view."

That right there is being hyperbolic. Two contrarian opinions does not a lynch mob make.

"I could be wrong about your impression of me but, please just know that you're wrong and I do feel a bit offended, not only that people are disrespecting my perfectly nice and smart uncle, but also my ability to think for myself."

Did I miss something? I don't remember seeing anyone say anything about you personally before that point.


But now you're calling his opinion 'wrong'. Please tell me you can understand how pretentious that sounds? You posted here, soliciting our opinions, then get offended when people give what you asked them for? Not only that, but you then declare their opinion to be 'wrong'? His opinion of your uncle is not for you to decide, get over it. Therein lies the crux of the point trying to be made. Szuchow's opinion isn't wrong, nor does it hurt you or your uncle. He could indeed be very intelligent, and Szuchow's opinion wouldn't change that. Your opinion of your uncle isn't dependent upon Szuchow's opinion of him, nor should it be.


Now I wanted you both to chill the fuck out; because honestly I really didn't want to have to lay down the logical smack down on a newcomer, so hard and so soon. I'm not a fan of biting off heads unless people really deserve it (which wasn't the case here), and that generally takes a bit of time and a whole lot of willful ignorance. But you solicited our opinions, didn't like two of them, blew it way out of proportion, then proceeded to whine like a petulant child when you where called out for it.


So, can you begin to understand things from our perspective? I get that you might not like what some have said about your uncle, but you cannot take such things personally; especially after asking us for our opinions. If you cannot handle criticism, you've still got a long way to go on your journey in life, and this will only make it more difficult.


So chill out, absorb what you've read, take it under consideration. Chalk this up to a learning experience, and let's all just move the fuck on with our lives. No harm, no foul.


C'est la vie.

I agree with EK here, Mittens. Although you have a normal emotional bond with your uncle, people on this forum doesn't, and not everybody will care about his other opinons. Indeed, this thread was related to his viewpoint on religion. If you don't want your uncle to be too criticised, put out a disclaimer that you don't like that in the first post, and then ignore anybody who doesn't follow it. That, or think twice before posting. Know your own limits.

On the other hand, Szuchow was out of line, no question, dealing out insults, leading to more insults. Calm down, it's the internet. You haven't even met eachother in person.

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29-04-2016, 08:11 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2016 08:16 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 07:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Did I miss something? I don't remember seeing anyone say anything about you personally before that point.

It goes like this I think - I say his uncle is stupid* cause religion and Mittens feel offended cause he think that I see him as equally stupid for thinking that person saying something good about religion could be intelligent.

(29-04-2016 07:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But now you're calling his opinion 'wrong'. Please tell me you can understand how pretentious that sounds? You posted here, soliciting our opinions, then get offended when people give what you asked them for? Not only that, but you then declare their opinion to be 'wrong'? His opinion of your uncle is not for you to decide, get over it. Therein lies the crux of the point trying to be made. Szuchow's opinion isn't wrong, nor does it hurt you or your uncle. He could indeed be very intelligent, and Szuchow's opinion wouldn't change that. Your opinion of your uncle isn't dependent upon Szuchow's opinion of him, nor should it be.

To add my two cents - his uncle indeed may be smart, but in my opinion his words about religion as relayed to us by OP are not speaking in favor of his intelligence. For me it is same old shit about impossibility of being good without faith in space fairy.

About rest of the post I have nothing more to add. Job well done Smile

*Except, not really.

(29-04-2016 08:11 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  On the other hand, Szuchow was out of line, no question, dealing out insults, leading to more insults.

I disagree. Telling someone that him being offended means shit may be crude but not insulting I would say.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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29-04-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 08:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 08:11 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  On the other hand, Szuchow was out of line, no question, dealing out insults, leading to more insults.

I disagree. Telling someone that him being offended means shit may be crude but not insulting I would say.


Well, aside from calling him a "Pathetic crybaby" several times. I'm sorry, but if you want the moral high ground here, you shouldn't have lost your temper either, regardless of who threw the first rock. Minimalist or EK didn't follow up with name calling.

Most of the time when situations turn out like this, it's best just to walk away. It's a waste of time.

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29-04-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 08:28 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Well, aside from calling him a "Pathetic crybaby" several times. I'm sorry, but if you want the moral high ground here, you shouldn't have lost your temper either, regardless of who threw the first rock. Minimalist or EK didn't follow up with name calling.

I'm not interested in claiming moral high ground. I just do not think that I was out of the line.

And I'm neither Minimalist nor EK.

(29-04-2016 08:28 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Most of the time when situations turn out like this, it's best just to walk away. It's a waste of time.

I agree but easier said than done.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-04-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 08:28 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Minimalist or EK didn't follow up with name calling.

Not this time, but I can be a right cocksucker when the mood hits me. Tongue

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29-04-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(28-04-2016 02:02 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  He said that human beings are inherently psychopathic and it's only our upbringing that keeps us from being psychopaths.

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29-04-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
Religion causes a fare amount of non-survival in the world.
The gods in the story books also cause MOST of the non-survival in those stories.

Water is a key component to our survival, but I wouldn't compare it to religion.
We really do NEED water to survive. We don't need religion for survival.
Atheists are proof that religion is not necessary for survival.

Animals don't have religion and they survive just fine.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-04-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
I'd offer counter examples. Here's a couple off the top of my head.

1) Bonobo monkeys are capable of altruism, compassion, empathy, kindness, patience, and sensitivity. Sounds like a moral code to me. What religion do the bonobos have?

2) The Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god,and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that a missionary come to give them Jesus had never seen him . They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made. They have survived without God for a long long time. Missionary dude left them as an atheist.

I can probably come up with others.

#sigh
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29-04-2016, 07:07 PM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
Yeah, you know what, I've been thinking about it, in spite of the fact that I really can't stand people saying my uncle is an idiot, I really don't like the stuff he said to me. I tried telling him that I think that people are capable of living without religion, he seems to think that human beings are inherently psychopathic creatures. I found that to be hard to believe, but at the same time it really did make me stop and think. I think that some people are predisposed to be psychopathic and without the proper raising, they can turn into psychopathic killers if they were abused by others, or simply have a fetish for death.

It always annoys me, when I think that I am being lead on to believe something that is false. No, I didn't believe what my uncle ways saying, but we had an incredible engaging discussion. He talked to me about the 3 reasons he feels that people get into politics, money, power, or sex. I asked him if people can just get into politics because they want to make a difference in the world, he said that that's not sustainable. I'm not sure what he meant by that.

There's a lot of things I wish I could ask my uncle to back himself up on. One thing which I don't know how to refute though, is that he says that religion is the basis for the morality that we live with in our modern society. What if he's right? Regardless, I think I may or may not have asked him why we have to threaten people with damnation for them to be moral, I didn't bring up how that is a false, lower form of morality, which I wish that I would have. I don't think it would have made a difference, because I'm guessing that after I made that point to him about threatening people (I think I also asked him why morality has to be based around a superstition) he said that human beings are inherently psychopathic.

I think that's the crux of his whole argument, which is that without religion human beings would just run rampant, but he did say that even he believes that the bible is difficult to believe. I'm not sure whether or not he really believes the stories in the bible, but I am guessing he is some sort theist. I don't agree with him that human beings are inherently psychopathic, I think that religion is the cause of a lot of problems in the world, I think that it's perfectly clear that human beings don't need religion to be moral people. He says though that my parents raised me, so that's why I'm a moral person and I'm not religious. I do find that point sort of annoying.

So yes, you know what? I do find a lot of the points that my uncle made disagreeable, some of them were even somewhat vaguely insulting. I understand how other people can look at this and say, wow you uncle sounds like he really doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. You know what? I probably do have some sort of bias that makes me see him in a more respectable light, but honestly I just love him as an uncle, I think that he's incredibly engaging and doesn't shut down when he's pressed on an issue. It's just fun to have an argument with someone who's an intelligent debater. He actually recommended to me that I look into debating.
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29-04-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: My uncle was trying to convince me that religion is necessary for human survival
(29-04-2016 07:07 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  No, I didn't believe what my uncle ways saying, but we had an incredible engaging discussion.

That is really all that matters.

#sigh
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