My views on Morality
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21-01-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 09:54 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  One of the measures of objective right and wrong is the degree to which it can be enforced by the objective law giver.
A law which isnt enforced can hardly be called objectively "good" or moral or right.
Do you care to explain how one enforces a moral law? Consider

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21-01-2014, 10:32 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2014 10:35 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 10:08 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Of course I was being facetious, Lion. Smile
No need to clarify that. Thumbsup

(21-01-2014 10:08 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Have you ever visited ironchariots.org?
Yes.
http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4134

(21-01-2014 10:08 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  It has a nice little refutation to your lawgiver point. Since I don't think you'll go there I'll paste it here for you.
Moral law requires a Lawgiver...

No need. I am not arguing about a law giver.
I am arguing about a law ENFORCER.

God might make laws that nobody thinks are objectively "good" and nobody obeys and nobody ever gets punished for disobeying them and that would make those laws objectively irrelevant. They may as well not even exist. Everyone making up their own "laws" and doing what they want.
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21-01-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 08:29 PM)Krabman Wrote:  Nature has no universal code for morality.

This is where you perform your sleight-of-hand. No there is no universal code of morality in nature but there are species-specific "codes of morality" that constrain the behaviour of non-human animals within some social unit.

Quote: The human moral code is used to attempt to create a stable civil ecosystem.

Yes but not necessarily. A morality derived from a religious doctrine such as Judaism is concerned with pleasing an angry deity.

Quote:Therefore, morality is irrelevant to nature and is only a human concept.

No and morality is an evolved idea. It is only because we have evolved certain neurological structures that we are able to conceptualise action in terms of its morality. Human morality--at least at the level of the emotions that make it possible--is just an extension of non-human primate morality which in turn is an extension of mammalian morality.

Quote:It is not absolute, and it is entirely up to the individual to evaluate his or her decisions.

This is more sleight-of-hand. Tigers do have a "morality" and it pertains only to tigers--that it pertains only to tigers doesn't alter that. Tiger behaviour is constrained else they would be unable to form a streak.
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21-01-2014, 10:37 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 10:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 09:54 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  One of the measures of objective right and wrong is the degree to which it can be enforced by the objective law giver.
A law which isnt enforced can hardly be called objectively "good" or moral or right.
Do you care to explain how one enforces a moral law? Consider

Yes.
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21-01-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 10:37 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Yes.
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I'm sorry, but I don't know what this response is supposed to mean in the context of my question.

There are several different institutions that enforce laws (in the legal sense), such as police departments or courts.

Which institutions are capable of enforcing moral laws?

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21-01-2014, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2014 10:54 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: My views on Morality
I was making a point about the ability to compel someone to the punishment.
If that is absent, then the (anti-bullying) law is subjective, irrelevant, unenforceable and may as well not even exist.
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21-01-2014, 10:56 PM
RE: My views on Morality
The only reason we ask about objective right and wrong is because there are competing law givers.
One way to settle the matter would be to ask which law giver has OBJECTIVELY biggest police baton.
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21-01-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 09:54 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  One of the measures of objective right and wrong is the degree to which it can be enforced by the objective law giver.
A law which isnt enforced can hardly be called objectively "good" or moral or right.

You clearly said the giver is the enforcer, and besides, you're using semantics. My ironchariots refutation still stands.

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21-01-2014, 11:05 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 10:50 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  I was making a point about the ability to compel someone to the punishment.
If that is absent, then the (anti-bullying) law is subjective, irrelevant, unenforceable and may as well not even exist.
I agree with you on that, save for the subjective bit. You yourself said that the level of enforcement is only one of several measures used to determine the objectivity of a law.

(21-01-2014 10:56 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The only reason we ask about objective right and wrong is because there are competing law givers.
One way to settle the matter would be to ask which law giver has OBJECTIVELY biggest police baton.
What would your answer to that question be? I personally still don't know how one would even begin to swing the metaphorical police baton when it comes to moral laws regarding human thought, for instance.

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21-01-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: My views on Morality
(21-01-2014 11:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 10:56 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The only reason we ask about objective right and wrong is because there are competing law givers.
One way to settle the matter would be to ask which law giver has OBJECTIVELY biggest police baton.
What would your answer to that question be? I personally still don't know how one would even begin to swing the metaphorical police baton when it comes to moral laws regarding human thought, for instance.

As a biblical theist the answer to that question is God. Note in the quoted bible verse that God can even detect the most carefully hidden crime - conspiracy to commit a crime.

A moral law giver - with objective true morality as the goal - would and should make a distinction between the guilty act and the guilty mind. A group of people talking about blowing up a building, or inciting others to do so, cant claim to be innocent simply on the grounds that they didnt actually DO anything.

(21-01-2014 11:04 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 09:54 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  One of the measures of objective right and wrong is the degree to which it can be enforced by the objective law giver.
A law which isnt enforced can hardly be called objectively "good" or moral or right.

You clearly said the giver is the enforcer, and besides, you're using semantics. My ironchariots refutation still stands.

I was making a distinction between two competing claimants to the title of law giver. One can enforce their law and the other cannot.

The one who cannot enforce their law is no different to 1,000 other people subjectively claiming that their moral view is...moral.
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