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03-01-2012, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2012 10:31 AM by Infidel.)
RE: NDAA
That is a good point germanyt. I can see a law working today, and then being abused in the future.Our leaders change so often it keeps us busy looking for new leaders to replace them. Our government is a hard beast to handle. All we can do sometimes is keep voting for the lesser of 2 evils, then try to keep congressional leaders in office who hopefully will not begin moving us to the concentration camps. Thats life though. Everyone has always had to fight to be free, so I guess we fight or loose out.

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03-01-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: NDAA
(03-01-2012 09:25 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(03-01-2012 09:21 AM)Infidel Wrote:  I am 57 years old and feel just as free now as I did as a child. It looks to me like it is you who are afraid. I have no problem with giving my elected president and congressional leaders the tools they need to fight this war. I guess I am still a little more conservative than I thought. I certainly am not for abusing Arab Americans and Muslims human rights. They must be protected by the same law as me. I am not in the inteligence business, but I have watched them dismantle more than one terrorist plot in this country. And I have seen terrorists who claimed to be Christians too (Timothy McVeigh).He was the Oklahoma City bomber. By the way, it seems to me that it is you who are looking for an island, not me Smile


To be fair, complacency is a short path to dictatorship. If laws like this continue to pass it's only a matter of time before those powers are abused. And when you are 77 years old and being drug off to a concentration camp for beign atheist (or whatever it is they hate) you can think back to the time when you thought, "I don't see what the big deal is".

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: NDAA
(01-01-2012 10:59 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Has Canada moved closer to where America is politically, or has America moved to become more like Canada?

When is this comparison to be made?
I was here in 1970, when Canada gave asylum to US draft dodgers and had excellent social services, energy plan, civil rights, public health care and education. I don't see the US approaching that standard, though feeble attempts at progress were made by Carter and Clinton.
Since Mulroney and Free (!!) Trade, Canada has been moving along two deferential steps behind the ever rightward trend in the US: union busting, deregulation, extra-legal detention and deportation, police power, border scrutiny and secret no-fly lists, adulation of the military, craven news-reporting - the whole totalitarian thing, only with less hoopla.
We're a bit slow, but we've been steadily electing more fatheads to public office.

Quote:It's interesting to me that the OP raises a potential threat of marching atheists off to the concentration camps.
Once the national register of atheists is complete. Somebody's counting us right now. But i don't think this is the real aim - more likely to be arrested are socialist agitators (who also happen not to believe in gods, probably) union leaders, and Black activists. And a few high-profile Muslims, just to satisfy the Infidels.

Quote: The Christian Fundies don't fear the threat, they are confident of the threat that Christians will be lead off to the camps persecuted for their faith, AND, they can provide you with GPS coordinates and fuzzy photos proving that these camps are already in existence.

...and, if necessary, dress the corpses in xtian robes and lay them facing the other way.... then crash a burning Winnibago into the white house and drop a Canadian passport on the sidewalk...

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03-01-2012, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2012 11:49 AM by Infidel.)
RE: NDAA
I found the official congressional version online if anyone wants to study it. I tried to study it years ago but found it to be very boring. I think I like the BC version better.

Sorry, I had 2 tabs open and posted this in the wrong thread! Here is the the correct thread, if this link works.

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03-01-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: NDAA
I'm extremely disappointed in our president for doing this. I can forgive that he can't fix the economy all by himself, and that his medical care program isn't expansive enough, and that he frequently gives in to the right. But I can't forgive signing away civil rights like this. I'm still looking to see what he did to earn the Nobel Peace Prize, because I haven't seen it yet.

I don't think we'll see atheist concentration camps; that sort of talk reminds me of what I used to hear Christians say when they really get going in their persecution complex. But that doesn't change the fact that any person wrongfully detained without trial and with no chance to defend themselves is wrong. And it cries out against the image of this country that we in the US carry in our minds. We claim to be the land of the free and the brave, but we act out in fear and detain our own people.

I know that the president justifies this as the power already existed as part of the Patriot Act, but it wasn't explicit- this just makes it explicit. To me that should have been a perfect reason to write into the law that indefinite detainment without trial is wrong. Clearly the President sees it differently.

So now comes the choice of the next election. Do we choose to re-elect a president we know is willing to sign away civil liberties? Or do we choose to elect a president who caters to the right, the side from which the Patriot Act originated?
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03-01-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: NDAA
I guess I am totally screwed and no asylum will work. All the country's I thought of are either in the pocket of the USA or will bend to the will of our power. All under the false fear of terrorism. Like theirs a terrorist on every block. It kind of also reminds me of the 50's with the commie threat. I am also in my 50's so Infidel has nothing on me. I remember hiding under my desk in school for duck and cover. What a joke!!! It's the same propaganda. I don't think I like the term terrorist either. What is a terrorist?? The Government can make any group a terrorist group and off you go, No trial, no defense, you're just gone forever. They in essence say this group of people on this site are all terrorist. Off to the camps we go. Don't you get it. You feel just as safe as you did before. You're living with blinders on.
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03-01-2012, 12:50 PM
RE: NDAA
You seem to be very naive about the threats we face in the world today, Mr.N.E.OhioAtheist. You seem to want to be running away from your problems instead of fighting. Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter in this world. Do you even remember the very real communist threats we faced from the Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev, leader of the former USSR? Do you remember him saying that they would take over the USA without firing a shot? Do you remember the nuclear arms race we had with them in those days? Do you remember the scientist's predictions for our future, and the doomsday clock they setup? Welcome to the jungle. We have to change history daily! We will find ways to fight!

"I have not yet begun to fight" John Paul Jones

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03-01-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: NDAA
(03-01-2012 11:52 AM)kineo Wrote:  I'm extremely disappointed in our president for doing this. I can forgive that he can't fix the economy all by himself, and that his medical care program isn't expansive enough, and that he frequently gives in to the right. But I can't forgive signing away civil rights like this. I'm still looking to see what he did to earn the Nobel Peace Prize, because I haven't seen it yet.

I don't think we'll see atheist concentration camps; that sort of talk reminds me of what I used to hear Christians say when they really get going in their persecution complex. But that doesn't change the fact that any person wrongfully detained without trial and with no chance to defend themselves is wrong. And it cries out against the image of this country that we in the US carry in our minds. We claim to be the land of the free and the brave, but we act out in fear and detain our own people.

I know that the president justifies this as the power already existed as part of the Patriot Act, but it wasn't explicit- this just makes it explicit. To me that should have been a perfect reason to write into the law that indefinite detainment without trial is wrong. Clearly the President sees it differently.

So now comes the choice of the next election. Do we choose to re-elect a president we know is willing to sign away civil liberties? Or do we choose to elect a president who caters to the right, the side from which the Patriot Act originated?


Like I've said before. I can't imagine why Republicans hate Obama. He's one of them.

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03-01-2012, 01:06 PM
RE: NDAA
(03-01-2012 12:50 PM)Infidel Wrote:  You seem to be very naive about the threats we face in the world today, Mr.N.E.OhioAtheist. You seem to want to be running away from your problems instead of fighting. Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter in this world. Do you even remember the very real communist threats we faced from the Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev, leader of the former USSR? Do you remember him saying that they would take over the USA without firing a shot? Do you remember the nuclear arms race we had with them in those days? Do you remember the scientist's predictions for our future, and the doomsday clock they setup? Welcome to the jungle. We have to change history daily! We will find ways to fight!

"I have not yet begun to fight" John Paul Jones

I'm of the opinion that we as a nation had played an active part in allowing "the threat" to be a threat. Perhaps even encouraging it. The same is true today. Yes, the threat is real but in many ways we make it worse and inflate it. That's the problem I have with these types of laws, there has to be a better way. I realize it may be naive and I may be an idealist to think we can fight the battle another way. However, still I believe there must be a better way.

(03-01-2012 12:54 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Like I've said before. I can't imagine why Republicans hate Obama. He's one of them.

Completely agree.

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03-01-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: NDAA
Hey they still have that doomsday clock up Smile As you can see by looking at it, between 1990 and 1991 we were at 11:43, 12:00, midnight being doomsday. That was the year the Berlin wall, the wall that seperated East & West Berlin, Communists and the free world. The wall was torn down by protesters while wall guards watched in fear. That was right after president Reagan made a speech there, telling USSR leader Mikhail Gorbachev to "Tear Down This Wall". As you can see the scientists begin turning the clock back that very year.

I guess that is one way we can fight kineo. But we need strong leaders and the protesters in order to get it done. I am becoming more and more conservative here! But I feel like the energy may be coming back again! That would be awesome if an Atheist could do it!

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