NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
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23-09-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 01:44 AM)phild249 Wrote:  
(22-09-2014 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are very strange. Drinking Beverage
First of all I do apologise for saying no one sent any links,I didn’t see them before I spoke ,so yes you are correct.
The thing is all this evidence only shows there is still activity in the brain.
It shows reason no why thousands of people should have the same experience or illusion if you like.
I mean when people are asleep when there is supposedly, I would suspect, much more activity in the brain than flatlining on the operating table, why these people should have remarkably and consistent experiences ,paralleling accident or nearly murdered victims.
Sleepers dreaming are not likely to have the same dreams as any other sleeper,just random bits and pieces or at least that’s all that can be recalled,but no similarity to any other sleeper, and just usually non sensical experinces.
However NDE ,I will call neardeath experiencer for arguments sake,although they aren’t actually quite dead.
I mean why with extreme clarity would the proven out of body experience,the feeling of extreme well being, the light, the complete life recall,the meeting relatives ( always deceased) ,sometimes with prophetic information ,and being told its not time for them to pass over,and then returning to (bodily) consciousness .
Also a lot of people claim to have older relatives that have died before ,and that they have never actually met in life,but recognise from photos and descriptions.
You could say this is poppycock I am not stating it as fact or fiction but not having experienced it myself I would not make judgement,but there are many claims for this.

All the so called evidence that you claim to negate everything above is based the fact that there is some small burst of life still available in the brain.
Oh and and coarse rats have them.
How on earth is any of this explained by detecting a small sign of waning wave brain activity.
Also all the real scientific investigators, use the assuming terms , I believe,possibly,maybe,and could be because,
They do not actually claim it as factual as you do ,even though you are basing your arguments on their studies.

Sensible answers please,


Sensible answers only

I don't think I made any claims not made by researchers. Consider

I have said the evidence indicates that NDEs are brain-based and statistically culturally dependent.

You also haven't considered that since all human brains are more alike than not, that there will be a great deal of commonality of experience under the similar conditions.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-09-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 05:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-09-2014 01:44 AM)phild249 Wrote:  First of all I do apologise for saying no one sent any links,I didn’t see them before I spoke ,so yes you are correct.
The thing is all this evidence only shows there is still activity in the brain.
It shows reason no why thousands of people should have the same experience or illusion if you like.
I mean when people are asleep when there is supposedly, I would suspect, much more activity in the brain than flatlining on the operating table, why these people should have remarkably and consistent experiences ,paralleling accident or nearly murdered victims.
Sleepers dreaming are not likely to have the same dreams as any other sleeper,just random bits and pieces or at least that’s all that can be recalled,but no similarity to any other sleeper, and just usually non sensical experinces.
However NDE ,I will call neardeath experiencer for arguments sake,although they aren’t actually quite dead.
I mean why with extreme clarity would the proven out of body experience,the feeling of extreme well being, the light, the complete life recall,the meeting relatives ( always deceased) ,sometimes with prophetic information ,and being told its not time for them to pass over,and then returning to (bodily) consciousness .
Also a lot of people claim to have older relatives that have died before ,and that they have never actually met in life,but recognise from photos and descriptions.
You could say this is poppycock I am not stating it as fact or fiction but not having experienced it myself I would not make judgement,but there are many claims for this.

All the so called evidence that you claim to negate everything above is based the fact that there is some small burst of life still available in the brain.
Oh and and coarse rats have them.
How on earth is any of this explained by detecting a small sign of waning wave brain activity.
Also all the real scientific investigators, use the assuming terms , I believe,possibly,maybe,and could be because,
They do not actually claim it as factual as you do ,even though you are basing your arguments on their studies.

Sensible answers please,
Sensible answers only

In post # 7 you were given a link to an animal study that showed rats have NDE's. The fact that human brains "desating" of 02, experience somewhat simialr (but ALWAYS culturally realative) things is not surprising at all. Always in THEIR language, always things they already thought they knew about. Did even 1 of them come back and report something "unknown" (hitherto) to either themselves or humanity in general. No. Not one. There is nothing further to explain.


I've looked for statistics on the rise of NDE's in the last 20 to 30 years but didn't really find anything. My thought is that with medical advances doctors are better able to bring people back from the brink of death. I would think NDEs were few and far between in centuries past, up until perhaps the 1960's or so.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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23-09-2014, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2014 02:13 PM by phild249.)
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 01:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay, so people who do supposedly experience NDE's whenever they almost die report similar experiences. Could it be because they're all experiencing the same or similar super-natural realm after they died for a moment? Or are they all similar because they are experiencing similar physiological circumstances that are colored through the incredibly pervasive filter of religion, for which the vast majority of share similar dogmas about a paradise after death?

One of these is far more probable than the other. Guess which one it is? Drinking Beverage
The trouble is many, perhaps hardly any I don’t the percentage do not necessarily have these prep pro-posed ideas in fact most of them are totally shocked,and often claim it changes their lives.
I can’t imagine somebody in a life threatening position being chased and stabbed or run down by a truck or whatever at that moment in time,suddenly thinks about their Grandfather or who-ever,oh there I was just being beaten to death and I thought I would think about the family and how they getting on.
I am not saying there’s anything divine ,I am not a God-ist ,if that’s even a word Just inquisitive .

I was jumped by 4 tossers when I was working the doors in London and a faceless slag stabbed me in the back and run off.This is what started my interest in the subject when I was recovering.
(Not saying that I had any experiences)
This is I how see the abusive morons who have nothing of any value to say .(You are not included)
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23-09-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 04:43 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(23-09-2014 01:44 AM)phild249 Wrote:  real scientific investigators

A REAL scientific investigators relies on evidence, of which there is none what so ever for an afterlife. NDE's only evidence of an afterlife if you do two things a.) presuppose there is an afterlife and b.) ignore all the cases of NDE that have NOTHING to do with an afterlife. If you do not assume there is an afterlife then at worst you have a biological and neurological phenomena that is, as yet, unexplained. However through trials, experimentation, and EVIDENCE we can go much further then that because much of it IS explained to a degree that is orders of magnitude more probable than" fairies and god and afterlife and shit".

So you are engaged in 2 different errors in thinking right off the bat, the first of which is you presuppose a conclusion that has zero evidence to support it and you defend that conclusion through confirmation bias(logical fallacy) by excepting the NDEs that support your conclusion and ignoring the ones that do not. Not everyone see's a light. Not everyone see's dead relatives. There is no global constant that would be absolutely required for a conclusion of "afterlife". People have NDEs that are religious that are completely contradictory to other peoples religiously themed NDEs and that all by it's fucking self negates your theory. People have NDEs where they spend time gallivanting in fictional universes with fictional characters.

Here is something for you to ponder : in the entire course of human history the number of times an event was thought to have a supernatural, magical, or "other worldly" cause that when investigated accurately and soundly verified that cause is exactly fucking ZERO. NEDs are just the newest battle ground for the people that like to peddle woo. They are not special.
There you go again babbling shit.You need to learn how to read I said many people not all,and who said I thought it was any kind of heaven thing, but there you go with talking bollocks again arguing with yourself no wonder your always Right
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23-09-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 09:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-09-2014 01:44 AM)phild249 Wrote:  First of all I do apologise for saying no one sent any links,I didn’t see them before I spoke ,so yes you are correct.
The thing is all this evidence only shows there is still activity in the brain.
It shows reason no why thousands of people should have the same experience or illusion if you like.
I mean when people are asleep when there is supposedly, I would suspect, much more activity in the brain than flatlining on the operating table, why these people should have remarkably and consistent experiences ,paralleling accident or nearly murdered victims.
Sleepers dreaming are not likely to have the same dreams as any other sleeper,just random bits and pieces or at least that’s all that can be recalled,but no similarity to any other sleeper, and just usually non sensical experinces.
However NDE ,I will call neardeath experiencer for arguments sake,although they aren’t actually quite dead.
I mean why with extreme clarity would the proven out of body experience,the feeling of extreme well being, the light, the complete life recall,the meeting relatives ( always deceased) ,sometimes with prophetic information ,and being told its not time for them to pass over,and then returning to (bodily) consciousness .
Also a lot of people claim to have older relatives that have died before ,and that they have never actually met in life,but recognise from photos and descriptions.
You could say this is poppycock I am not stating it as fact or fiction but not having experienced it myself I would not make judgement,but there are many claims for this.

All the so called evidence that you claim to negate everything above is based the fact that there is some small burst of life still available in the brain.
Oh and and coarse rats have them.
How on earth is any of this explained by detecting a small sign of waning wave brain activity.
Also all the real scientific investigators, use the assuming terms , I believe,possibly,maybe,and could be because,
They do not actually claim it as factual as you do ,even though you are basing your arguments on their studies.

Sensible answers please,


Sensible answers only

I don't think I made any claims not made by researchers. Consider

I have said the evidence indicates that NDEs are brain-based and statistically culturally dependent.

You also haven't considered that since all human brains are more alike than not, that there will be a great deal of commonality of experience under the similar conditions.
Thank you for your reply ,I do respect your opinion ,and realise are an intelligent man,when you reply curtesly I am glad to hear your opinion ( I do not consider you one of the abusive morons that I spoke of in another post to somebody else )
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23-09-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 02:11 PM)phild249 Wrote:  
(23-09-2014 04:43 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  A REAL scientific investigators relies on evidence, of which there is none what so ever for an afterlife. NDE's only evidence of an afterlife if you do two things a.) presuppose there is an afterlife and b.) ignore all the cases of NDE that have NOTHING to do with an afterlife. If you do not assume there is an afterlife then at worst you have a biological and neurological phenomena that is, as yet, unexplained. However through trials, experimentation, and EVIDENCE we can go much further then that because much of it IS explained to a degree that is orders of magnitude more probable than" fairies and god and afterlife and shit".

So you are engaged in 2 different errors in thinking right off the bat, the first of which is you presuppose a conclusion that has zero evidence to support it and you defend that conclusion through confirmation bias(logical fallacy) by excepting the NDEs that support your conclusion and ignoring the ones that do not. Not everyone see's a light. Not everyone see's dead relatives. There is no global constant that would be absolutely required for a conclusion of "afterlife". People have NDEs that are religious that are completely contradictory to other peoples religiously themed NDEs and that all by it's fucking self negates your theory. People have NDEs where they spend time gallivanting in fictional universes with fictional characters.

Here is something for you to ponder : in the entire course of human history the number of times an event was thought to have a supernatural, magical, or "other worldly" cause that when investigated accurately and soundly verified that cause is exactly fucking ZERO. NEDs are just the newest battle ground for the people that like to peddle woo. They are not special.
There you go again babbling shit.You need to learn how to read I said many people not all,and who said I thought it was any kind of heaven thing, but there you go with talking bollocks again arguing with yourself no wonder your always Right

Looks like you need to learn to read(as well as write) I never said you said all. Also I see your just gonna ignore the entire content of the post and just whine like a little bitch. Not surprising for a person willfully engaging in fallacious thinking. Unless you have an explanation for why people have mutually exclusive NDE experiences?

You're engaged in confirmation bias and making arguments from personal ignorance.

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24-09-2014, 12:12 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(21-09-2014 05:15 AM)Ace Wrote:  finding a penn & teller episode automatically makes me wanna type the word bullshit for some reason, is there an explanation my conditioning to type that ? Consider

part 1




part 2, skip to 6:10, the stuff before that is ouija boards (magic spirit cardboard thingys)




part 3




finding a penn & teller episode on something is almost like an official certificate of proof of being bullshit for that topic
NDE,s
I feel that perhaps Penn & Teller are working on the wording of the experience here.I mean lets not call it a near death experience.
Its like trying to negate the existence of steam from a hot spring , the best method is to put the kettle on. That may not be the best analogy but the point is creating something is hardly the best method of showing that it cannot exist, perhaps these test people were not near death but it may be the same reaction kicks in ,although it appears only at its initial phase, after all you could say they were perhaps marginally on the verge because of oxygen starvation.
It would seem the closer to death you are the more vivid and clearer the experience and yet presumably the brain would be less efficient when flatlining .
It may also be that not everone claims to have had this experience when close to death,but then many people do not recall the fact that they dreamed whilst asleep,it doesn’t mean it never happened.
If you are awakened from sleep you would often realise you were dreaming,however should your sleep run its normal coarse the memories of your dreams evaporate ,perhaps this is the case of the people who claim to remember nothing at all ,strangely not even an alternate dream experience.
Had they had another type of usual dream you could say anything could happen to the brain while in this state,but by remembering nothing the possibility is it did happen but they just don’t recall.
However should it be said that the brain is hardly likely to dream while at this point ,it totally opposes that the short burst of activity is the cause of the nde
I am not saying this proves the god theory but I feel we are still very much in the dark on this subject,and these two clowns claiming to have achieved something that many scientist are having problems coming to terms with is the real bullshit
The studies of Wilder Penfield may interest properly seriously minded scientifically interested people.
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24-09-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(23-09-2014 02:01 PM)phild249 Wrote:  
(23-09-2014 01:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay, so people who do supposedly experience NDE's whenever they almost die report similar experiences. Could it be because they're all experiencing the same or similar super-natural realm after they died for a moment? Or are they all similar because they are experiencing similar physiological circumstances that are colored through the incredibly pervasive filter of religion, for which the vast majority of share similar dogmas about a paradise after death?

One of these is far more probable than the other. Guess which one it is? Drinking Beverage
The trouble is many, perhaps hardly any I don’t the percentage do not necessarily have these prep pro-posed ideas in fact most of them are totally shocked,and often claim it changes their lives.
I can’t imagine somebody in a life threatening position being chased and stabbed or run down by a truck or whatever at that moment in time,suddenly thinks about their Grandfather or who-ever,oh there I was just being beaten to death and I thought I would think about the family and how they getting on.
I am not saying there’s anything divine ,I am not a God-ist ,if that’s even a word Just inquisitive .

I was jumped by 4 tossers when I was working the doors in London and a faceless slag stabbed me in the back and run off.This is what started my interest in the subject when I was recovering.
(Not saying that I had any experiences)
This is I how see the abusive morons who have nothing of any value to say .(You are not included)

Are you kidding me? Facepalm

Those who lack any belief in the supernatural or in any afterlife make up the extreme minority across the world...

You don't have to be a Bible-thumping fundamentalist to be aware of the idea of Heaven, accept it as a cultural norm, and to have that color your perception. If I had an near-death-experience, I would sooner attribute it to natural physiology than as any sign of any afterlife. I am more than aware of how flawed our perceptions are even when we're fully awake or even when we're trying to be really mindful of our surroundings, let alone what can happen when the wires get crossed when someone 'dies' for a minute on the operating table; and once again, this view puts me in the extreme minority when compared to the world at large.

So yeah, on the whole, it is not at all surprising that in societies where the vast majority believe in an afterlife, that the vast majority interpret their NED's as indicative of an afterlife or other supernatural experience. The phenomena is just as readily explained through social psychology and confirmation bias as it is by neuroscience.

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24-09-2014, 04:38 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(24-09-2014 12:12 AM)phild249 Wrote:  The studies of Wilder Penfield may interest properly seriously minded scientifically interested people.

I'm curious as to what of Penfield's work you refer to. Consider

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24-09-2014, 06:47 AM
RE: NDE's are complete.................. BULLSHIT!
(24-09-2014 04:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-09-2014 12:12 AM)phild249 Wrote:  The studies of Wilder Penfield may interest properly seriously minded scientifically interested people.

I'm curious as to what of Penfield's work you refer to. Consider

I think he means something in this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield

also I found this Yes
http://penfield.com/
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