NDEs : Real or Fake?
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30-01-2017, 10:39 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
My own NDE had me outside of my body looking back on my bed, touching my cold foot under the covers.

It was as real as what I'm experiencing right now typing this.

But it all took place inside my brain.
Everything I will ever experience will happen inside my brain. It's just a matter of where the impulses that generate my experience are coming from.

When I'm conscious, those impulses come from my senses.
When I'm dreaming, those impulses come from my senses, from my internal memories and from my own imagination.
In an NDE, impulses are from the same as when I'm dreaming, but have the same clarity as full consciousness.

At least, that's my experience with them.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-01-2017, 10:50 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
When I had my NDE I saw exotic dancers, heard 50's do-op songs, and Donna Summer's disco music. I KNEW Jesus was gay.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-01-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
(30-01-2017 10:22 PM)mordant Wrote:  http://www.near-death.com/religion/athei...eists.html

It's written by someone who equates atheists with nasty, selfish people.

There of course are going to be campfire stories like this around, but what's needed are not more claims, or citations for them. What's needed, and completely lacking, despite some considerable money being spent on research, is any proof of an afterlife via NDEs, or even any proof that these occur after brainwaves flatline, which would not prove an afterlife or even that consciousness operates apart from the body, but would at least be a start.

Thanks for that link. I note that a lot seems to hang on the story by "famous atheist" Sir Alfred Ayer, who reported thusly of his NDE:

"I was confronted by a red light, exceedingly bright, and also very painful even when I turned away from it. I was aware that this light was responsible for the government of the universe. Among its ministers were two creatures who had been put in charge of space. These ministers periodically inspected space and had recently carried out such an inspection. They had, however, failed to do their work properly, with the result that space, like a badly fitting jigsaw puzzle, was slightly out of joint.

A further consequence was that the laws of nature had ceased to function as they should. I felt that it was up to me to put things right. I also had the motive of finding a way to extinguish the painful light. I assumed that it was signaling that space was awry and that it would switch itself off when order was restored. Unfortunately, I had no idea where the guardians of space had gone and feared that even if I found them I should not be able to communicate with them. It then occurred to me that whereas, until the present century, physicists accepted the Newtonian severance of space and time, it had become customary, since the vindication of Einstein’s general theory of relativity, to treat space-time as a single whole.

Accordingly, I thought that I could cure space by operating upon time. I was vaguely aware that the ministers who had been given charge of time were in my neighborhood and I proceeded to hail them. I was again frustrated. Either they did not hear me, or they chose to ignore me, or they did not understand me. I then hit upon the expedient of walking up and down, waving my watch, in the hope of drawing their attention not to my watch itself but to the time which it measured. This elicited no response. I became more and more desperate, until the experience suddenly came to an end."


I'm afraid this sounds like total bullshit to me—particularly his total recall of the finer details and the 'mechanics' of his observations. All in the space of 3 or 4 minutes? I also read that in 2001 Dr Jeremy George, the attending physician, claimed that Ayer had confided to him: "I saw a Divine Being. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revise all my books and opinions."

At any rate, I guess we won't know one way or the other until we actually—as Hamlet suggested—shuffle off this mortal coil. Consider

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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30-01-2017, 11:24 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
(30-01-2017 09:02 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 08:18 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  ... some atheists claim to see hell others say the feel like fading in nothingness. never the less how do you account for them?

We need a citation for this claim.

I experience it every time a new NDE thread is opened. Rolleyes

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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31-01-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
(30-01-2017 10:58 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm afraid this sounds like total bullshit to me—particularly his total recall of the finer details and the 'mechanics' of his observations. All in the space of 3 or 4 minutes? I also read that in 2001 Dr Jeremy George, the attending physician, claimed that Ayer had confided to him: "I saw a Divine Being. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revise all my books and opinions."
Well, did he end up doing that?

In any event, it doesn't matter. People report that NDEs seem extraordinarily compelling to those who experience them, to the point that those who are willing to be persuaded by subjective experiences despite reason, find it a life-changing inflection point.

I don't have many nightmares but when I do, I find them compelling too, to the point that I awaken with pounding heart and take a few seconds to reorient myself to actual reality. That doesn't mean I expect to be chased in real life by a sentient pickle or whatever my slumbering brain conjured up for me that was so realistic.
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03-02-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
On a side note, I just started watching the Netflix show "The OA" during my daily commute on the train which is about a woman who experienced a NDE. Only on episode 4 but a neat story so far without religious overtones (yet).

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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04-02-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
There is no Biblical basis for an NDE.

They be easily explained through science.

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04-02-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
(31-01-2017 09:04 AM)mordant Wrote:  People report that NDEs seem extraordinarily compelling to those who experience them, to the point that those who are willing to be persuaded by subjective experiences despite reason, find it a life-changing inflection point.

Interestingly, my father had an NDE shortly before he died.

After he was resuscitated, he "came back" convinced that there was no God, no afterlife, no continuation of existence or consciousness after death.

Alas, we never really got the chance to discuss it in detail. Sad
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04-02-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
(11-01-2017 08:30 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  ... and ketamine (a medication mainly used for starting and maintaining anesthesia) has been shown to replicate all features of an NDE

Disassociatives for the motherfucking win. PCP is a hell of a drug.

#sigh
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06-02-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: NDEs : Real or Fake?
NDEs have several problems. First, they contradict. So one could say that some are real while others are false. But how do we distinguish between the two? The second problem is that variables haven't been accounted for. No one who experiences an NDE can rule out the possibility that their ecperience was caused by lack of certain chemicals in the brain. You can't rule out any counfounding variables. The third problem is that many who experience NDEs never actually offer a worldview. They assume that all people are operating on a subjectivist view of justification. They assume that we can have a coherent concept of the after life. They assume that their heart stopping is the point at which their immaterial soul departs. But rarely do you hear a cogent concept of the immaterial soul given by those who claim to have NDEs. The issue is that many things are assumed or taken for granted. This makes "knowledge" of the after life too easy.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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