NEED Help with a theist.
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28-10-2017, 03:06 PM
NEED Help with a theist.
HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".
So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST".

His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue.Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place. For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life? Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistc guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necesary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist.

HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english
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28-10-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
Welcome to TTA.

Your English is fine. No worries there.

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28-10-2017, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2017 03:58 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
Hello! Big Grin

Your English seems as good, if not better, than mine. Smile

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28-10-2017, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2017 04:13 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".

It sounds like your friend is a presuppositionalist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presupposi...pologetics

He is defining God as the Truth, but that merely begs the question. For an atheist, the facts and any truths underlying them are entirely separate from any God concept. We have a completely different epistemology.

However, that doesn't mean you can communicate this to him so simply. The main thing to point out is that atheists don't use Christian assumptions to judge the merits of atheistic perspectives, like he does.

It seems obvious to me that the purposes of life are intrinsic to life, not to God. Life is meaningful even without an afterlife. Your friend assumes what he needs to prove.
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28-10-2017, 04:14 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist.

HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english

1+1=10 if you're a programmer, ergo God is not necessary. I have actually responded this way more than once to this argument. In every instance it has cut short further debate. ... One guy did try to punch me once but I smothered him with love and whispered softly and sweetly into his ear that if he did not relax his ribs would crack under the immense weight of my love. Big Grin

[Image: GCK133n.jpg]

#sigh
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28-10-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".
So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST".

His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue.Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place. For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life? Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistc guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necesary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist.

HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english

Just use the kamehameha on him.

[Image: 20187c397eb70609488619f9cbe3425510591930_hq.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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28-10-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue.

What he is saying is:

For <something real> to exist, there has to exist <a real environment for it>.


What he is implying is:

For <something real> to exist, there has to exist <something that is not real>.


His inference is:

If one thing exists then every possibly imagined thing exists.

I need not explain how ludicrous this is.
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28-10-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
I just have to ask with the username, did you manage to best Vegeta? Also your English is better than many native speakers among my students, so you shouldn't worry about it. Smile

Anyhow, friend, I agree, sounds like a presupposisitionalist. So maybe ask him "What is Truth?" then? And why does he believe it to be true?

Need to think of a witty signature.
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28-10-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
There is no way to "win" any argument with a committed theist. The mindset is wrong. The theist is not seeking truth, only validation, and since reason won't get him there reason just rolls off like water on oilcloth, never sinking in. I can only suggest, if this theist is an acquaintance whose society you otherwise value, you steer the conversations to topics you have in common, rudely, if you have to, if the theist keeps trying to drag the conversation back into the swamp.

Only when a theist broaches the topic because doubts have arisen unbidden will reason begin to succeed; because unconscious reason is what cut submerged doubts loose from their deadweights and allowed them surface. But you're not going hand your theist the chain cutters; he has to pick those up by himself.
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28-10-2017, 08:06 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".
So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST".

What a mess of concepts. You couldn’t have picked someone easier to disagree with? Tongue
Start with challenging his stacking of presumptions.

He’s asserted life has to have higher purpose.
He’s asserted life has to be eternal to have said purpose.
He’s asserted only a god can make us immortal.
He’s asserted this - none other, THIS - god will make us immortal.
He's asserted god has to exist.
He’s asserted immortality is a good thing.
etc

Each and every one of them unsupported.

Quote:His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue.Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us? Ex: why u say smoking its bad?

An argument I would make there is that we have a scientific understanding of what smoking does to our health, whereas the infusion of immortality from gods is an event we have no observation or analysis off whatsoever.

Quote: But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist?
To exist (dispensing with a a long philosophical debate) means to be objectively real. Existence doesn't mean everlasting, frozen in its present state. Nothing we can determine to exist in nature is static.

Good luck. You will need it.
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