NEED Help with a theist.
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14-11-2017, 12:05 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(14-11-2017 11:56 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(14-11-2017 11:49 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  Your only real explanation is we don't know how things came about
Thats because we have something you dont, and its called intellectual honesty. We can admit to not knowing something. Can you?

The rest of your drivel is ignored, because its a big ole pile of "you cant explain how it was not god".
You make nonsensical claims, so back them up, bring evidence for your god nonsense or shut the fuck up.

How can you say (with intellectual honesty) the claim the universe and life was caused by God is nonsensical without knowledge of how naturalistic forces caused such or a better explanation? Submit your evidence to show my claim is non-nonsensical or stop making the bullshit claim.
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14-11-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(07-11-2017 09:53 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  These conditions are required for us humans to have reason to believe we owe our existence to a Creator. Imagine if we could examine a chaotic lifeless universe if I argued it was caused by a Creator there would be far less reason to invoke a Creator-designer of such a universe. There would be much greater reason to believe it was the result of naturalistic forces. No exacting conditions are needed for a chaotic universe.

You're welcome to argue in this forum that...

The fact life exists
The fact intelligent life exists.
The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform....
The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range...
The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist...

Hey Rue Paul, sorry, but none of your conditions "apply".
None of those are reasons to think a god exists. They may be questions, but the gods are not answers to any of them, especially a Christian god :
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
Ephesians 2:8
Belief in a Christian deity is not prompted by unanswered questions, (a god of your particular gaps).

A real god could make life happen in (a universe with) order OR disorder, in a narrow range, or a wide range of conditions. Intelligent design is actually an argument against an omnipotent deity. You don't know any of the things you claim. Dark Energy and Dark Matter make up 95 % of this universe, and their properties are unknown. Until they are, you can say nothing, nor can you make any claims. They are all based on ignorance.

The universe is not ''chaotic". Order arises naturally/spontaneously, as do the conditions necessary for life ... eventually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

There is, however, not a shred of evidence (nor is it even a meaningful string of words), to declare that a "creator" did anything. (Doing something requires time, a priori .... you have no evidence for that), There is not a shred of evidence any of the gods humans cooked up, ever did, or "do" anything. Do millions of innocent babies die of starvation and disease ? Yes. Do a church full of believers get wiped out on a Sunday morning ? Yes they do. Does the universe go "lifeless" for the lifetime of a Black Hole (10^100 years ... the MAJORITY of the time it will exist) ? Yes. There are NO reasons to assume there is a deity in charge of anything, (especially the Babylonian war god ... Yahweh Sabaoth ... the (40th) son of El Elyon, the chief Babylonian god).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-11-2017, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2017 12:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(06-11-2017 09:42 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
Quote:Just one question:

Have you considered the possibility the universe was never created at all?

Not sure what you mean by created. If the universe was the result of a singularity turning into a universe as some suggest about 13.5 billion years ago, I'd consider that a creation event. What would you call it? If time always existed we'd never arrive at this time.

Meaningless drivel.
If you're claiming a "creation" event, it requires the INTENTION and ACT of a creator. Neither are meaningful in the absence of time. Spacetime exists IN this universe only, as far as we know. Using (applying) the words "creation" and "creator" to conditions in which they are meaningless simply demonstrates desperation.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-11-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(14-11-2017 12:05 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  How can you say (with intellectual honesty) the claim the universe and life was caused by God is nonsensical without knowledge of how naturalistic forces caused such or a better explanation?

Because postulating a totally undetectable god-like being -- in particular, one among literally thousands of other gods invented by humanity -- explains nothing at all.

We have organic molecules. We have the Miller-Urey experiment from the 1950s, proving that amino acids -- a key component of life -- can form on their own. We have spectrometric analyses of distant stars. We've witnessed spontaneous RNA formation in a laboratory setting, and I suspect that DNA formation is not far behind.

All religion has is silly stories and arguments from ignorance -- which in my opinion is akin to having less than nothing.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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14-11-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(14-11-2017 12:05 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(14-11-2017 11:56 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Thats because we have something you dont, and its called intellectual honesty. We can admit to not knowing something. Can you?

The rest of your drivel is ignored, because its a big ole pile of "you cant explain how it was not god".
You make nonsensical claims, so back them up, bring evidence for your god nonsense or shut the fuck up.

How can you say (with intellectual honesty) the claim the universe and life was caused by God is nonsensical
As long as you fail to meet your burden of proof and even dishonestly try to shift it back at me.
For the same reason i call the claim bullshit that it was caused by pink and green pixies, although i made that claim myself in another post recently, because i havent provided evidece for pixies. Intellectual honesty is a funny thing, eh?

(14-11-2017 12:05 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  without knowledge of how naturalistic forces caused such or a better explanation?
I dont have to demonstrate that naturalistic forces caused someting to disprove your silly god claims. Thats not how rational thinking works. You have to back up your claims, you know.
Looks like you still dont understand the "*i dont know* is a perfectly reasonable position" part of this conversation.
Now that you mentioned natural forces in comparison to Allah as a creator of everything, i think they are more probable. You know why? Because we already know that natural forces exist, unlike Allah. At least until you bring your evidence for his existence to the table.

(14-11-2017 12:05 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Submit your evidence to show my claim is non-nonsensical or stop making the bullshit claim.
Second try to shift the burden of proof. Didnt work the first time, so guess what...
Do you know what negating a negation means, by the way?
I am not making a bullshit claim. I keep calling everything bullshit at will, as long as there isnt sufficient evidence provided...for example by you, for your own claim, or by me for my pixie claim.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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14-11-2017, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2017 02:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
Many people have a high *need* for :
cognitive closure : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_c...hilosophy)
and possess a low tolerance for ambiguity :
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sid...-avoidance
http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/users/p/padil...iguity.pdf
It basically boils down to psychological questions, not religious ones, or philosophical ones, (and certainly not scientific ones).

As we go forward, and possibly find evidence for other universes, find other dimensions we cannot detect now, find the answers to (Einstein's) "spooky action at a distance" our views of reality will likely be challenged, and may or may not comport to our local reality. We know the laws of physics break down at a singularity .... so who knows, there many be other objects in this universe, or outside it that we will be surprised about. Slapping generalizations on all of Reality, based on a tiny local (insufficient) sample of it, is simply stupid, and pre-mature.

There is no coherent definition or historical model, of any of the gods, that can be sustained. A god that "exists" is bound by a (sub) property of Reality. It answers nothing about where Reality came from, (and cannot, by definition).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-11-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(14-11-2017 11:49 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  Inquisition,

Quote:You should have the courage of your beliefs to make more specific claims, here you go, hiding behind vagaries and a faux agnosticism.

That's pretty rich coming from folks who often say they make no claim they just lack belief. I'm a theist, a theist believes we owe our existence to a Creator, a transcendent being who intentionally caused the universe to exist. Most atheists characterize that belief on par with belief in Santa Claus, Tooth fairies and leprechauns. One would think the level of evidence in favor of unguided naturalistic forces causing all we observe would be on par with evidence against Santa Claus or tooth fairies, otherwise why make the comparison?

[quote]The laws of nature sufficed- ok, so why are you here promoting a teleological argument?

Because the laws of nature were intentionally caused and designed to produce the results we observe. You must believe the laws of physics are just the characteristics we observe and they were caused involuntarily by mindless forces that didn't care one wit whether they resulted in our existence, they didn't care if there was gravity, they didn't care if the amount of anti-matter was the same or slightly different to allow our existence. Natural mindless forces didn't care if gravity was in a narrow range to allow the existence of stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies and certainly had no intent to cause life or intelligent life to exist. The funny thing is Mother Nature does seem to care if the conditions for our existence obtained. Can you explain that? Why naturalistic forces that didn't have the slightest regard for our existence caused one condition after another that was necessary for our existence. Since you don't even call that evidence in favor of theism I assume you have a perfectly rational naturalistic explanation. Unfortunately, in spite of all your bravado and caterwauling against theism not only do you not have a better explanation you really don't have any explanation. Your only real explanation is we don't know how things came about we just know God wasn't involved.

You are still making vague claims and dishonestly conflating life and intelligence.

If you aren't willing to narrow your claims, then it's not worth having any discussion with you.

Was an intelligence needed for the creation of life or intelligence?

If it's necessary for life, then this is a claim for abiogenesis.

Again, you already said:

Quote:I don't know if a Creator needed to step in at certain points to cause what we observe, it appears the laws of nature sufficed.

It's up to you to provide evidence of a specific biochemical reaction that requires an intelligence. All you have done is dodged specifics.


If it's necessary for intelligence, then this is a claim for brain development.

At which SPECIFIC point does the development of brains require an intelligence?

Was this when worms first developed rudimentary brain structure over 500 million years ago? Or when primates developed the capacity for speech? Your vague assertions are unfalsifiable and lack any explanatory power.

You also ignored this question more than once- why are you capitalizing words like creator and god?

Your own vague assertions make this deity out to be a generic force and certainly not anything deserving of a name, or are you willing to give more specifics about this deity you are conferring proper noun status to?

Be honest, is it really Odin or Zeus you're talking about?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-11-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
I'll bet it turns out to be the local, most convenient god.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-11-2017, 02:24 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
There is no absolute boundary between life and non-life.








Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-11-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(14-11-2017 01:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  It's up to you to provide evidence of a specific biochemical reaction that requires an intelligence.

I think it was the Kreb's Cycle. God damn ... I could never memorize it right. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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