NEED Help with a theist.
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30-10-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".
So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST".

His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue.Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place. For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life? Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistc guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necesary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist.

HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english

The key to responding to all such claims is to recognize that it is just made up in the imagination. It is just an arbitrary claim. The way to respond to any such claim is to say that the same could be said about anything one imagines. Example: "our discussion would have no purpose if Sparky the Wonder Unicorn didn't exist. The two claims are on equal epistemological footing. So ask him how you can reliably distinguish what he is calling God from something that is merely imaginary. Watch him hem and haw and avoid answering the question. There is no answer because his God is in fact imaginary.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-10-2017, 10:03 AM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2017 10:07 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
Imagine that you are trying to talk a person out of liking the food that they were raised on by applying logic.
That's about what is going on.
A person believes the religion they believe because they were raised that way. 99.999999% of the time at least.
It has absolutely nothing to do with logic.
They never did decide to believe things.
Least of all things like astrophysics.
Nobody opened a book on astrophysics and suddenly believed in Jesus.
Proving them wrong based on it is about as meaningful.
Same goes for Darwinism or Philosophy or anything else.
All you can do this way is make them feel like shit.
They will fight as hard as they can to keep their bullshit working.
And if you succeed what have you really accomplished?
Fuck em. Let them have their bullshit and walk away.
The endless hammer blows of science will continue to make their beliefs unsustainable without fighting these tiny battles.

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30-10-2017, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2017 02:32 PM by Ace.)
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".

that line makes no sense, just replace god with any other noun and see just how stupid it is

Quote:So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST"..

discussions and anything else having a purpose is not contingent upon god's existence or non-existence since the fuckers existence has so far yet to be proven

Quote:His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue. Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place. For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life? Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistic guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necessary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necessary to exist.

there's so much baloney in there Facepalm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YnlW59-...B-3MiY17uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAR29P6L...B-3MiY17uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBLbb0Y6RQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLJczkOU44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMAypyKqVKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf9q1Ukh...uk&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkrX5lMiks

Quote:HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english

the videos should help but I suggest you look at the rest of ACX's videos https://www.youtube.com/user/AntiCitizenX/videos

The more one asserts their own unquestioned preconceived beliefs, the more demanding I will be for empirical evidence for I will accept nothing else in place of it
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31-10-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(30-10-2017 10:03 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Imagine that you are trying to talk a person out of liking the food that they were raised on by applying logic.
That's about what is going on.
A person believes the religion they believe because they were raised that way. 99.999999% of the time at least.

Maybe in Muslim countries...not in western societies. Most young adults test their parents beliefs and often go off in a different direction.

Quote:It has absolutely nothing to do with logic.
They never did decide to believe things.
Least of all things like astrophysics.
Nobody opened a book on astrophysics and suddenly believed in Jesus.

What does astrophysics tell you about how the universe and life came about?

Quote:The endless hammer blows of science will continue to make their beliefs unsustainable without fighting these tiny battles.

Thus far it doesn't appear science has any knowledge about how the universe came into existence, why time exists or the laws of physics.
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01-11-2017, 05:31 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(31-10-2017 07:14 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(30-10-2017 10:03 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Imagine that you are trying to talk a person out of liking the food that they were raised on by applying logic.
That's about what is going on.
A person believes the religion they believe because they were raised that way. 99.999999% of the time at least.

Maybe in Muslim countries...not in western societies. Most young adults test their parents beliefs and often go off in a different direction.

Do you have a citation for the claim of "most"? My impression is that is becoming more common but that it is still a good bet that any given person's religion is basically the one they got from their parents.

Quote:
Quote:It has absolutely nothing to do with logic.
They never did decide to believe things.
Least of all things like astrophysics.
Nobody opened a book on astrophysics and suddenly believed in Jesus.

What does astrophysics tell you about how the universe and life came about?

More than religion does.

Quote:
Quote:The endless hammer blows of science will continue to make their beliefs unsustainable without fighting these tiny battles.

Thus far it doesn't appear science has any knowledge about how the universe came into existence, why time exists or the laws of physics.

Neither does religion; it has claims but that isn't the same thing. The good thing about science is that it doesn't make claims without offering evidence to support them and it revises the claims in light of better evidence.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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01-11-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(31-10-2017 07:14 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Thus far it doesn't appear science has any knowledge about how the universe came into existence, why time exists or the laws of physics.

A typical 'you can have it now or you can have it good' situation.
The "answer" you can have now is that a skywizard made everything as an expression of love.
The good answer will take time and effort, as everything worthwhile usually does.
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01-11-2017, 06:11 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(31-10-2017 07:14 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Maybe in Muslim countries...not in western societies. Most young adults test their parents beliefs and often go off in a different direction.

Please look at the many people who follow and hand over they're hard earned jingle to AiG, Kirk Cameron, Pat Robertson, and every other religious nut with a following.
Most people don't question they're parents beliefs because children at a young age act under the impression that grown ups especially their parents are telling them the truth and this effect only reduces with age that is if they aren't fed claims that certain beliefs are true and deviating from them is bad non-stop by the society they live in. which is why children are brought into religion at a young age, it has nothing to do with truth or facts but propagation of a belief.

Quote:What does astrophysics tell you about how the universe and life came about?
Listen you can't hold a meaningful discussion on the origin of the universe unless you understand graduate level math, physics, relativity, quantum mechanics, a singularity etc etc etc. This isn't something laypeople can easily understand or make claims on. This is why scientists use very simple words and analogies when trying to explain this to lay people.

Also the origin of life is pretty well understood, we call it abiogenesis though there are still many things to work out its so far held up pretty well to tests


Quote:Thus far it doesn't appear science has any knowledge about how the universe came into existence, why time exists or the laws of physics.

In Science there is no such thing as space and time, rather they are combined into a single thing known as 'spacetime' and this is rather basic level stuff.

Also since we're on the topic of how the universe came into existence,religion claims to know thing it doesn't know and has so far made no attempts at proving their claims via empirical experimentation.

The more one asserts their own unquestioned preconceived beliefs, the more demanding I will be for empirical evidence for I will accept nothing else in place of it
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01-11-2017, 06:37 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(28-10-2017 03:06 PM)kakarot123 Wrote:  HELP!! How do i respond to this?
So, i got into an argument with a fellow about God and his existence. And i asked him to give me an logical, rational reason that God exists.
He said "The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".
So i asked him to elaborate and he basically said: "Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST".

His elaborate answer was this: "For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue.Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place. For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life? Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistc guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necesary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist.

HOW DO I RESPOND TO HIS?? btw sorry for my english

It's good that you raised this and are seeking our help to tackle a fallacious conversation on his part.

"The simple fact that i need to have a reason, that our discussion has a purpose".

"Our discussion would have no purpose if god wont exist, our discussion purpose its life, this is what we want from this discussion, this is what we want this disscussion to teach us, to have life. If God wont exist (the eternal life), our discussion wont serve a purpose, because everything we would do, we will get to DEAD. But the purpose is life ( life afterlife, eternal life), who gives eternal life? God, therfore God HAS TO EXIST."

What about every other activity - does it have a purpose? Challenge him by asking him these questions:

1) If God exists, why does he allow atheists to exist? Why does he allow atheists to deconvert en mass much of the religious humankind?

The first question is a good counterargument and antithetical approach.

2) Where does God come from? When and where did you first hear or touch upon the word God? Who told you first of all?

The second question on tracing the origins is crucial because it helps put in a good perspective with retrospection, in order to help dispel the misconceptions such as 'god'.

"For truth to exist, there has to exist someting that is not true, like saying: for something blue to exist, there most exist something that is not blue. If not, it wouldnt make any sense to say that something its blue...."

Is he really talking about characteristic contrasts and differences in attributes between two entities for one to be perceptible and distinct? Ask him that and challenge his thinking that there can exist variation/curve and continuity through the spectrum of distinct things or pigeonholes.

"Why we need to have truth as the purpose, and not the untruth/not true? Not because we see that that thing its doing good to us?Ex: why u say smoking its bad? But now the big problem comes.. what does it trully mean to exist? because the faithfull people say that a true living with God its beyond Dead. For christians, that its heaven, so, good for them its that truth, which help you get to that place..."

Awaken him to the interreligious reality - there are many other religions that preach similar notions so why universalise Christians only?

"For materialistic people, those who belive that this is all the life we have, the good is that, that help them live a longer life. so which one is right? if you take materialistic people, why is their concept not good about life?..

Ask him what makes him say or presume that materialists do not have good concept of life - challenge him that what is good or bad is subjective and individualistic. Ask him to define 'good'/'right' and 'bad'/'wrong'.

"Because in their conception, every life its sorted to dead, the only chance of a materialistc guy to live its to pass his genes. so the purpose of our discussion it not the truth, its dead, it has no purpose you could say. But if you take christians, where life its eternal, THEN to obtain that eternal life you must follow the path=> our purpose its the truth - truth exists - truth its necesary - the usefull things are good -good thing give life -our purpose its life - this discussion has a meaning. Who gives eternal life? GOD. 1+1=2 - God is necesairy to exist."

Why only Christians? Ask him that! Why only 'this path' and not any other possibilities?

Since God by definition means EVERYTHING, it must be inclusive of all bad things as well - both imaginable and unimaginable. So why is he limiting the definition of God to only 'good things'? Doesn't it sound selfish and clandestine to one's institutional ends only and not genuinely reflective of what God is really, in the strictest sense of the word?
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01-11-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
Challenge him to think that if God is real, that God would take care of everything so why would this guy want to do the work such as converting non-Christians alike.
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01-11-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: NEED Help with a theist.
(31-10-2017 07:14 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  Thus far it doesn't appear science has any knowledge about how the universe came into existence, why time exists or the laws of physics.

It has the best explanation for all of that.
That's the point. And what we do know is fascinating.
Pointing out the gaps in knowing everything does not make the idea of making up a story to explain everything any less ludicrous.




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