NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
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21-10-2016, 03:05 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 02:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 01:16 PM)skyking Wrote:  IRT V-a-V Genx or Geny, it depends on definitions. Many late BB identify as Genx, others are firmly in the BB camp. YMMV.


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21-10-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 09:53 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/...landslide/
Question for Americans.

Do you guys think USA is a beacon for democracy?
Quote:...gotten so close to leading the globe’s beacon of democracy.

You guys are constantly fighting off those who would see your country become a hardened theocracy.

With regards to the West, or the free world, I see USA as being an exception rather than the norm. A beacon for Christian nut jobs or a beacon for people who are really excited about owning and carrying guns, even a beacon for people who want to hate the "West" but I certainly don't see you guys as a beacon for democracy, or freedom, or opportunity.
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21-10-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 02:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 01:16 PM)skyking Wrote:  IRT V-a-V Genx or Geny, it depends on definitions. Many late BB identify as Genx, others are firmly in the BB camp. YMMV.


Hobo

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21-10-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 03:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 09:53 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/...landslide/
Question for Americans.

Do you guys think USA is a beacon for democracy?
Quote:...gotten so close to leading the globe’s beacon of democracy.

You guys are constantly fighting off those who would see your country become a hardened theocracy.

With regards to the West, or the free world, I see USA as being an exception rather than the norm. A beacon for Christian nut jobs or a beacon for people who are really excited about owning and carrying guns, even a beacon for people who want to hate the "West" but I certainly don't see you guys as a beacon for democracy, or freedom, or opportunity.

The US is light years behind Europe by now. I don't know enough about other parts of the world to do a decent comparison there.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-10-2016, 07:11 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 03:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 09:53 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/...landslide/
Question for Americans.

Do you guys think USA is a beacon for democracy?
Quote:...gotten so close to leading the globe’s beacon of democracy.

You guys are constantly fighting off those who would see your country become a hardened theocracy.

With regards to the West, or the free world, I see USA as being an exception rather than the norm. A beacon for Christian nut jobs or a beacon for people who are really excited about owning and carrying guns, even a beacon for people who want to hate the "West" but I certainly don't see you guys as a beacon for democracy, or freedom, or opportunity.

Excuse me sir! We are a Beacon of Delusion to the world and don’t you ever forget that! Angry

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-10-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(21-10-2016 03:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-10-2016 09:53 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/...landslide/
Question for Americans.

Do you guys think USA is a beacon for democracy?
Quote:...gotten so close to leading the globe’s beacon of democracy.

You guys are constantly fighting off those who would see your country become a hardened theocracy.

With regards to the West, or the free world, I see USA as being an exception rather than the norm. A beacon for Christian nut jobs or a beacon for people who are really excited about owning and carrying guns, even a beacon for people who want to hate the "West" but I certainly don't see you guys as a beacon for democracy, or freedom, or opportunity.

"Being a beacon" is not the mission of any nation-state. I don't carewhat any foreigner thinks of America. I care what America thinks of, and does in the name of, itself.

We're not a beacon, and we should not be one. Why should you look to America for anything? You live in a democracy yourself; vote as you wish and work on your own corner of the world (not to say you haven't).

You don't live here; you don't have to deal with it. What, exactly, are you upset about? That we're more religious than most first-world nations? Well, that ain't your horse; why are you saddling up? That we own guns in large numbers? Last I checked, bullets don't range 7,000 miles. If that's your issue, I'd tell you to move far away ... but you already live far away.

What's the real purpose of this post of yours? It doesn't inform, it doesn't enlighten.
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22-10-2016, 02:45 AM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2016 02:49 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
Thump, America, and individual Americans, very often seem to "judge" other countries against its own value set. Thus America reacts badly towards countries who do not go with its plans, yet reserves, very often, the right to go its own path.

If you want the right of independent action you must give all others the same right. If others break international laws and become a challenge to American security then you have grounds for action against them.

But, as with TTIP, you demand commercial superiority, if America wants rules that allow its companies to interfere in the sovereign rights of European countries, then the American value set is a direct challenge to my value set and my quality of life. I am so very, very glad it has been turned down!

The Great America Dream, aka the Great American Delusion, has held back your cultural development with its intense focus on, possibly, the wrong perspective of your history and presenting it as your present and future. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany both proved that anything other than a hard, entirely objective, view of one's own history, warts and all, in the modern context has no future.

It is only America's overwhelming wealth and numbers of people under arms that have given it authority so far. The first of those is currently under challenge, the second will not defend it against assymetric warfare without draconian regulation.

America's home grown violence is, perhaps, another symptom of its social malaise.

For as long as America wants any kind of global superiority its actions, internal as well as external, affects the globe, thus we all have right of comment.

For as long as America expects special treatment in world courts and markets by dint of its size and history it is not part of the real world.

But, bullets exist in the real world and are always a strong argument, especially for the weak, to apply.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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22-10-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Thump, America, and individual Americans, very often seem to "judge" other countries against its own value set. Thus America reacts badly towards countries who do not go with its plans, yet reserves, very often, the right to go its own path.

I've got news for you: every country does this, yours included.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  If you want the right of independent action you must give all others the same right. If others break international laws and become a challenge to American security then you have grounds for action against them.

But, as with TTIP, you demand commercial superiority, if America wants rules that allow its companies to interfere in the sovereign rights of European countries, then the American value set is a direct challenge to my value set and my quality of life. I am so very, very glad it has been turned down!

And I've never supported everything my country has done. We have indeed done much wrong, both domestically and on the world stage.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  The Great America Dream, aka the Great American Delusion, has held back your cultural development with its intense focus on, possibly, the wrong perspective of your history and presenting it as your present and future. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany both proved that anything other than a hard, entirely objective, view of one's own history, warts and all, in the modern context has no future.

There's much the American Mythos that has worked to our deficit. I've yet to be convinced that Stevil has a "hard, entirely objective" view of America's history. Do you think that's the case, that he does?

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  It is only America's overwhelming wealth and numbers of people under arms that have given it authority so far. The first of those is currently under challenge, the second will not defend it against assymetric warfare without draconian regulation.

Another newsflash: Force of arms and national wealth are what determine international power dynamics. Period.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  America's home grown violence is, perhaps, another symptom of its social malaise.

For as long as America wants any kind of global superiority its actions, internal as well as external, affects the globe, thus we all have right of comment.

Of course you do. That does not, however, exempt you from questions, or entitle your view to immediate correctness.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  For as long as America expects special treatment in world courts and markets by dint of its size and history it is not part of the real world.

But, bullets exist in the real world and are always a strong argument, especially for the weak, to apply.

You'll search my posting history in vain for a post wherein I advocate the force of arms as a resolution.

But this idea that America is not a part of the real world unless it comports with your values and desires is silly. Facts are facts.

I stand by my comments to Stevil.
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22-10-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(22-10-2016 02:01 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  What's the real purpose of this post of yours? It doesn't inform, it doesn't enlighten.
It was a question, meant to illicit information rather than to bestow information.

You seem a bit precious about the image of your country.
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22-10-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: NY Daily News' epic DJT takedown
(22-10-2016 10:02 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Thump, America, and individual Americans, very often seem to "judge" other countries against its own value set. Thus America reacts badly towards countries who do not go with its plans, yet reserves, very often, the right to go its own path.

I've got news for you: every country does this, yours included.

Grant you that, when Britain was just about the strongest power in the world, when its empire was at its peak. Now we are virtual has-beens, trying hard to stay up with the big guys but, basically, unable to cope with our own internal problems, unable to devote the kind of resources a modern armed forces system needs etc, etc.

I am refering more to the everyday interactions with those in other cultures. Though not always applied correctly we have, simply due to our imperial history, rather more experience of assessing cultural climates and dealing with them. There are times when you have to just go along with the locals wants (not needs) and not try to imposed your own culture which, from what I saw in footage and reports from the early days in Iraq and Afghanistan, is what America seems to think was the only way. Throw enough dollars at it and it is solved. No, the dollars end up in the accounts of the most corrupt, not where they are needed most.[/quote]

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  If you want the right of independent action you must give all others the same right. If others break international laws and become a challenge to American security then you have grounds for action against them.

But, as with TTIP, you demand commercial superiority, if America wants rules that allow its companies to interfere in the sovereign rights of European countries, then the American value set is a direct challenge to my value set and my quality of life. I am so very, very glad it has been turned down!

And I've never supported everything my country has done. We have indeed done much wrong, both domestically and on the world stage.[/quote]

Sorry, this was not a personal attack on your attitudes to your country but about us non-Americans having no right of interest in what you guys do over there. As I said later so long as America wants to be a global power and a large influence on what other countries do - which has been part of the pattern since WW2 at least - we also have a distinct right of interest on anything that happens in America that might influence its foreign policy.

For my part the whole structure of any society, or nation, goes down to bedrock, the people in the street who vote the people in authority over them who control that foreign policy. If Joe and Joan Public, or a large enough mass of Joe and Joan Publics, make enough noise it ripples up the ladder to the top. Thus my interest in your elections and a strong wish for Trump to get flattened under that landslide. Clinton we know something of. I think we can work with Clinton.

Britain can have hardly any effect on the, largely inward looking and self-defensive these days, America - the reverse is not so. We already have a bad imbalance with regards to extradition, no more thanks.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  The Great America Dream, aka the Great American Delusion, has held back your cultural development with its intense focus on, possibly, the wrong perspective of your history and presenting it as your present and future. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany both proved that anything other than a hard, entirely objective, view of one's own history, warts and all, in the modern context has no future.

There's much the American Mythos that has worked to our deficit. I've yet to be convinced that Stevil has a "hard, entirely objective" view of America's history. Do you think that's the case, that he does? [/quote]

Had to fire up the old tablet so I could read Stevil's post as I type!

Hmm,

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Some sympathy with what he says about the gun lovers, they still bother me but that is partly a cultural thing. I actually do love guns but see no need for the man in the street to carry one, except for the wholly created, artificial need for protection against the other man in the street who carries one! Kind of feedback that goes wrong now and again.

America has, since Vietnam possibly, been turning more and more inwards, as I have said before. You seem to be aware of the dual nature this can cause when combined with your, still, military dominance. But with the kind of warfare that can create 9/11 and all the other attrocities, as we see them, fleets of battle tanks and squadrons of ground attack aircraft are useless.America, and the rest of the world, is possibly going to have to rethink the whole picture when a few thousand can effectively hold a nation of millions hostage if it goes about it the right way.

America's once overwhelming wealth, commercial clout and numbers of people under arms gave it authority so far. The armed, political and commercial clout will not defend it against assymetric warfare without draconian regulation (a la Trump). I think it has yet to realise, or admit, this.

Think I cocked up the quotes there.

Force of arms only works when you obliterate the oppositions ability to wage any kind of warfare afterwards. This worked against Germany and Japan, but I think the kind of warfare that achieved that is, for political and other reasons, becoming history. The computer keyboard can be mightier than the sword - unless you blow all keyboards into dust.

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  America's home grown violence is, perhaps, another symptom of its social malaise.

For as long as America wants any kind of global superiority its actions, internal as well as external, affects the globe, thus we all have right of comment.

Of course you do. That does not, however, exempt you from questions, or entitle your view to immediate correctness.

Yet I am allowed my opinion on a democratic forum am I not? Difficult which of our countries have the mot excess baggage to haul around without studying far more history and doing far more analysis than I have stamina for these days!

(22-10-2016 02:45 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  For as long as America expects special treatment in world courts and markets by dint of its size and history it is not part of the real world.

But, bullets exist in the real world and are always a strong argument, especially for the weak, to apply.

You'll search my posting history in vain for a post wherein I advocate the force of arms as a resolution.

But this idea that America is not a part of the real world unless it comports with your values and desires is silly. Facts are facts.

I stand by my comments to Stevil.
[/quote]

OK, glad I am at the end of this, my shoulders and back are seriously giving me hell.

I am as objective about the UK as you seem to be about the US, both our countries have serious warts, but we do not, can not, pretend to be the global influence that America still likes to think it is. Yes, still just about the largest Western influence but China is working very hard to grab as much of the world's resources and influence as it can. In two minds as to what it will do then but I would lay money that neither the West and its allies in the East nor Russia will enjoy it.

Too tired to look for errors, please forgive those Big Grin

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