Natural born citizen
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04-01-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: Natural born citizen
(04-01-2016 11:54 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  The only thing not similar is Obama was born in the US. Drinking Beverage

And Obama is black, which I think had a lot to do with the whole "birther" bullshit.

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04-01-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: Natural born citizen
(04-01-2016 07:46 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 11:54 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  The only thing not similar is Obama was born in the US. Drinking Beverage

And Obama is black, which I think had a lot to do with the whole "birther" bullshit.

Ya think? Consider

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04-01-2016, 08:25 PM
RE: Natural born citizen
(04-01-2016 08:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 07:46 PM)BnW Wrote:  And Obama is black, which I think had a lot to do with the whole "birther" bullshit.

Ya think? Consider

Well if he were white, Kenya wouldn't have worked. He would have had to have been born in Iceland or something.

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05-01-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Natural born citizen
In Australia you don't have to be a natural born citizen, but if you want to be a member of parliament (including prime minister) you must first relinquish any foreign citizenship. The idea mainly being that you can't serve two masters while holding such an influential position. I'm surprised to hear a US president could hold Canadian dual citizenship while in office.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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05-01-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: Natural born citizen
(05-01-2016 10:29 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  In Australia you don't have to be a natural born citizen, but if you want to be a member of parliament (including prime minister) you must first relinquish any foreign citizenship. The idea mainly being that you can't serve two masters while holding such an influential position. I'm surprised to hear a US president could hold Canadian dual citizenship while in office.

I don't think he'd be able to, though I'm honestly not sure of the law. He relinquished his Canadian citizenship last year though because, allowed or not, it would have been awkward.

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05-01-2016, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2016 02:22 PM by jabeady.)
RE: Natural born citizen
(04-01-2016 01:11 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The U.S. has some inconsistent dual citizenship policies. It basically amounts to take dual citizenship if you wish, but the U.S. reserves the right to revoke your U.S citizenship at its discretion if it doesn't get along with that country or if you start doing things that would put your loyalties into question. For example, when I get my Canadian citizenship, there will be no problem. But if I suddenly decide to start running for Canadian office or something, which I won't because I'm way too fucked up for my image to survive the inevitable media raping (one screenshot of my Facebook feed, or half the posts I've made here even, would probably be enough to brand me a terrorist in the eyes of the naive majority), I would likely lose my U.S. citizenship. If I were to take citizenship in China or something (I had the theoretical option back when I was married and living in China), I would likely lose my U.S. citizenship regardless of my stated intentions. I assume the same was/is true for Cuba, and choosing to take U.S./Canada over Canada/Cuba was probably a rational decision Smile

The above mentioned Canada/France is also quite a convenient combination for a prospective world traveler or someone who intends to do business abroad and who doesn't want to be burdened by administrative BS all the time, given Canada's place in the Commonwealth and France's place in the EU.

I retired from US Citizenship and Immigration Services 2-1/2 years ago, and I have to ask where on earth are you getting your information?

American citizenship laws have changed over time, and you are subject to the law that was in effect at the time you were born. Generally, you are a "natural born citizen" if you have at least one American parent, or are born within US territory (including overseas territories and posessions). The US does not recognize a US citizen's claimed dual citizenship; you are either a US citizen or you are not. A born citizen cannot have his citizenship revoked. A naturalized citizen can only have his citizenship revoked if it can be proved it was obtained via fraud. A citizen can only renounce his citizenship at an American consulate.

In your example of running for foreign elective office (or serving in their military, etc), your case would be handled as an American acting on behalf of a foreign power; this could conceivably open you up to being charged with treason. If you entered the US via a foreign passport, you could be charged with making false statements upon entry (why you would want to do that is another question, because a US citizen cannot be refused entry). If you tried to get a US government job, your claimed dual citizenship would be considered as evidence that you consider yourself as owing allegiance to a foreign power, and it is your foreign allegiance, not the claimed dual citizenship, that would be problematic. If you obtained such a job without disclosing your foreign allegiance you would be guilty of fraud and perhaps charged with espionage, depending.

And so on. In all cases the US government will treat a US citizen as a US citizen *only*.
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05-01-2016, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2016 03:08 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Natural born citizen
(05-01-2016 02:16 PM)jabeady Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 01:11 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The U.S. has some inconsistent dual citizenship policies. It basically amounts to take dual citizenship if you wish, but the U.S. reserves the right to revoke your U.S citizenship at its discretion if it doesn't get along with that country or if you start doing things that would put your loyalties into question. For example, when I get my Canadian citizenship, there will be no problem. But if I suddenly decide to start running for Canadian office or something, which I won't because I'm way too fucked up for my image to survive the inevitable media raping (one screenshot of my Facebook feed, or half the posts I've made here even, would probably be enough to brand me a terrorist in the eyes of the naive majority), I would likely lose my U.S. citizenship. If I were to take citizenship in China or something (I had the theoretical option back when I was married and living in China), I would likely lose my U.S. citizenship regardless of my stated intentions. I assume the same was/is true for Cuba, and choosing to take U.S./Canada over Canada/Cuba was probably a rational decision Smile

The above mentioned Canada/France is also quite a convenient combination for a prospective world traveler or someone who intends to do business abroad and who doesn't want to be burdened by administrative BS all the time, given Canada's place in the Commonwealth and France's place in the EU.

I retired from US Citizenship and Immigration Services 2-1/2 years ago, and I have to ask where on earth are you getting your information?

American citizenship laws have changed over time, and you are subject to the law that was in effect at the time you were born. Generally, you are a "natural born citizen" if you have at least one American parent, or are born within US territory (including overseas territories and posessions). The US does not recognize a US citizen's claimed dual citizenship; you are either a US citizen or you are not. A born citizen cannot have his citizenship revoked. A naturalized citizen can only have his citizenship revoked if it can be proved it was obtained via fraud. A citizen can only renounce his citizenship at an American consulate.

In your example of running for foreign elective office (or serving in their military, etc), your case would be handled as an American acting on behalf of a foreign power; this could conceivably open you up to being charged with treason. If you entered the US via a foreign passport, you could be charged with making false statements upon entry (why you would want to do that is another question, because a US citizen cannot be refused entry). If you tried to get a US government job, your claimed dual citizenship would be considered as evidence that you consider yourself as owing allegiance to a foreign power, and it is your foreign allegiance, not the claimed dual citizenship, that would be problematic. If you obtained such a job without disclosing your foreign allegiance you would be guilty of fraud and perhaps charged with espionage, depending.

And so on. In all cases the US government will treat a US citizen as a US citizen *only*.

To be honest I can't remember where I initially came across the information. As a person without a legal background I've had to wade my way through various aspects of citizenship, residency, etc. in the U.S., China, and Canada over the last decade or so, first living in China, then getting my now ex-wife to the U.S., then moving to Canada and living there while still on reserve status with the U.S. military. And yes, now reviewing the info based on what you've said, I concede some of what I thought I knew is indeed bullshit :/

As far as traveling with dual citizenship, I wasn't necessarily talking about trying to enter the U.S. using a different citizenship when you already have U.S. citizenship. The usefulness of dual citizenship in regards to traveling is more along the lines of going to different places with differing relationships and agreements with the U.S. For example: While living in China, there was an instance in which they up and decided, in response to perceived unfairness towards Chinese citizens traveling to the U.S., that they were only going to issue 3 month work visas to U.S. citizens living in China, but would issue visas valid for much longer durations to everyone else. That meant by the time I got a visa it was almost time to start the renewal process all over again. At that time, having Canadian citizenship on top of my U.S. citizenship would have been quite convenient. And as for the above mentioned Canadian/French citizenship combo, that would be useful for working within other commonwealth countries, as the process is easier than if you wanted to work there with a U.S. citizenship, or if you wanted to work in other parts of Europe, given France's place in the EU.

And having two passports of any type is handy if your work brings you to both Israel and any other part of the Middle East, as they are authorized to deny entry based on what countries they can see that you've traveled to by flipping through your passport. My girlfriend ran into this issue when her previous job required her to do audits in both Israel and Kuwait.

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05-01-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Natural born citizen
(05-01-2016 03:04 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(05-01-2016 02:16 PM)jabeady Wrote:  I retired from US Citizenship and Immigration Services 2-1/2 years ago, and I have to ask where on earth are you getting your information?

American citizenship laws have changed over time, and you are subject to the law that was in effect at the time you were born. Generally, you are a "natural born citizen" if you have at least one American parent, or are born within US territory (including overseas territories and posessions). The US does not recognize a US citizen's claimed dual citizenship; you are either a US citizen or you are not. A born citizen cannot have his citizenship revoked. A naturalized citizen can only have his citizenship revoked if it can be proved it was obtained via fraud. A citizen can only renounce his citizenship at an American consulate.

In your example of running for foreign elective office (or serving in their military, etc), your case would be handled as an American acting on behalf of a foreign power; this could conceivably open you up to being charged with treason. If you entered the US via a foreign passport, you could be charged with making false statements upon entry (why you would want to do that is another question, because a US citizen cannot be refused entry). If you tried to get a US government job, your claimed dual citizenship would be considered as evidence that you consider yourself as owing allegiance to a foreign power, and it is your foreign allegiance, not the claimed dual citizenship, that would be problematic. If you obtained such a job without disclosing your foreign allegiance you would be guilty of fraud and perhaps charged with espionage, depending.

And so on. In all cases the US government will treat a US citizen as a US citizen *only*.

To be honest I can't remember where I initially came across the information. As a person without a legal background I've had to wade my way through various aspects of citizenship, residency, etc. in the U.S., China, and Canada over the last decade or so, first living in China, then getting my now ex-wife to the U.S., then moving to Canada and living there while still on reserve status with the U.S. military. And yes, now reviewing the info based on what you've said, I concede some of what I thought I knew is indeed bullshit :/

As far as traveling with dual citizenship, I wasn't necessarily talking about trying to enter the U.S. using a different citizenship when you already have U.S. citizenship. The usefulness of dual citizenship in regards to traveling is more along the lines of going to different places with differing relationships and agreements with the U.S. For example: While living in China, there was an instance in which they up and decided, in response to perceived unfairness towards Chinese citizens traveling to the U.S., that they were only going to issue 3 month work visas to U.S. citizens living in China, but would issue visas valid for much longer durations to everyone else. That meant by the time I got a visa it was almost time to start the renewal process all over again. At that time, having Canadian citizenship on top of my U.S. citizenship would have been quite convenient. And as for the above mentioned Canadian/French citizenship combo, that would be useful for working within other commonwealth countries, as the process is easier than if you wanted to work there with a U.S. citizenship, or if you wanted to work in other parts of Europe, given France's place in the EU.

And having two passports of any type is handy if your work brings you to both Israel and any other part of the Middle East, as they are authorized to deny entry based on what countries they can see that you've traveled to by flipping through your passport. My girlfriend ran into this issue when her previous job required her to do audits in both Israel and Kuwait.
Oh, I concede that dual citizenship can be handy, my main point is only that the US doesn't recognize it for US citizens, and that the default position is, "once an American, always an American."

I imagine, though, that things could get uncomfortable if the wrong people find a second passport in your luggage.
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08-01-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Natural born citizen
(04-01-2016 11:54 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  The only thing not similar is Obama was born in the US. Drinking Beverage

Tell that to Trump.

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09-01-2016, 06:38 AM
RE: Natural born citizen
I remember the polling data not just about the question of showing that at that point 66% of Trump supporters believed Obama wasn't born in the US

But something like 20-35 range believed Ted Cruz was born in the US when asked. Something that nobody goes around claiming but it's just a spiteful position through and through to remain held on to the Obama thought.

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