Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 09:47 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2014 09:54 AM by Baruch.)
Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
I just read a post by Alla (and many theists - not picking on her...) blaming humans for the extreme brutality which would be attributed to a God by any rational empirical reflection.

what is the best theistic apologetics you have come across ? As a former theist (which you used to use as a defence ?) or current theist ?

I have cut & pasted the post which really annoyed me about humans being to blame below:

(17-01-2014 06:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 03:44 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Much more disturbing than this is if Gods love is equivocated with torturing humans (every 45 seconds child dies of malaria fever from Gods design of plasmodiums & mosquito's = evidence for Gods love) and I personally have not tortured other humans in such a way- then I don't know God. Oh well.
Whose fault is this that those kids suffer? If you take care of them they will do much better. By "you" I mean all people.
God sent those angels because they need to have physical bodies and have this life experiences. Adults suppose to take care of these angels while they are not capable to do it on their own. And they(adults) are failing. Shame on us. God will hold us accountable if we don't do what adults suppose to do.

Alla Even when I was a very religious believing theist I would be embarrassed to write something so naïve as you have done:
Quote:Alla: Whose fault is this that those kids suffer? If you take care of them they will do much better

In many cases it is impossible for humans to "take care of them" -
I can give you hundreds of examples:
Here is one VERY clear example:
The Justinian plague or various bubonic plagues wiped out 1/4 of some parts of Europe and other parts of the world - the "cause" of this was not "sins" but migrations to other parts of Eurasia and people unknowingly bringing back rats in the cargo and exposing large parts of the world to bacteria they have never been exposed to before, in utterly overwhelming numbers, to a population indoctrinated with Christianity & undeveloped sciences, with literally very little humans could do about it and no clear message from God or assistance.
On the contrary God is the DIRECT cause of such barbarism (if existed)

1. No divine law "thou shalt not migrate"

2. Many religions insist that they must pray in churches or mosque - the ultimate breeding ground for spreading infection - just imagine if the bible or quran said to pray in community EXCEPT IF YOU ARE SICK - DONT SPREAD IT !!! - the holy books don't say this.

3. God created an amazing killing machine - the bacteria's such as Enterobacteriaceae Yersinia pestis & fleas+ rats (immunity has evolutionary origins explained by biology - very impersonal process, little to do with divine beliefs or belief in holy ghosts)

4. God deliberately did not give immunity to most of the population - people with immunity are not correlated with their faith or religious denomination (usually geographical location based on previous exposure across many generations is the most important factor).

5. God did not inform anyone about prevention methods or any medical science or technology. (its a far stretch but maybe some jews did not contract due to religious rules about washing hands, hygiene & handling corpses - but even these were poor instructions in the overall picture)

6. God prevented sciences by establishing dogmatic religions sceptical of science and forbidden to investigate & do empirical research which might contradict scriptures - research into medicine was held back for centuries between the fall of Greece to renaissance & enlightenment.

7.God didn't even give a revelation about the sociological + biological causes hence perpetuating the disaster when priests blamed and persecuted others eg Christians persecuting jews for causing the plague - again Gods messages not only cause harm & destruction but perpetuate it !

....and Alla - really, you have the audacity and boldness to assert that
Quote:Alla: Whose fault is this that those kids suffer? If you take care of them they will do much better

If this is what you holy ghost tells you then please either get another ghost with better information of just learn history & some biology and get rid of all the ghosts

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
The zone defence is the most effective.

Whereas "man-to-man" (person-to-person) doesn't seem to work so well... at least, not on this forum.

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18-01-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Dodgy

Guy theist comes by, gets flamed in one thread, game over. Girl theist comes by, it's all "hey look at me." Did I mention, Dodgy

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18-01-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
I thought I already explained about the trials. We are subjects to all natural laws. And the point that when we CAN do something to fight enemies(any evil) we HAVE to do it. Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil(enemies)
When we do all we can to learn natural laws we become like Gods, we start to get involved in those natural laws. We can CREATE NEW things. Without being subjects to natural laws and without trying to make our living better we can not learn on our own how to be like Gods, how to overcome and how to endure.

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18-01-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Dodgy

Guy theist comes by, gets flamed in one thread, game over. Girl theist comes by, it's all "hey look at me." Did I mention, Dodgy
Girl_nails

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18-01-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Dodgy

Guy theist comes by, gets flamed in one thread, game over. Girl theist comes by, it's all "hey look at me." Did I mention, Dodgy

Bullshit.

She's been told she's inconsistent, stupid, delusional, ignorant, brain damaged, incoherent, and more.

She just carries on with the crazy.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil

We've already taken the first step and eliminated the evil gods that others proclaim are good. We eliminated them from thunder storms, from chemical reactions, from disease.
We are trying to eliminate them from our laws and our social culture.
We must fight this evil and overcome it if our species has any hope of survival.

Rational thought must prevail

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-01-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Dodgy

Guy theist comes by, gets flamed in one thread, game over. Girl theist comes by, it's all "hey look at me." Did I mention, Dodgy

Bullshit.

She's been told she's inconsistent, stupid, delusional, ignorant, brain damaged, incoherent, and more.

She just carries on with the crazy.

By you maybe, but you say the same about me. Tongue

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18-01-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:Alla:We are subjects to all natural laws. And the point that when we CAN do something to fight enemies(any evil) we HAVE to do it. Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil(enemies)

Read my starting post above - you didn't explain it.
The example of the bubonic plague - and many other examples, we cannot do something about it and its not directly humans fault.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:46 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil

We've already taken the first step and eliminated the evil gods that others proclaim are good. We eliminated them from thunder storms, from chemical reactions, from disease.
We are trying to eliminate them from our laws and our social culture.
We must fight this evil and overcome it if our species has any hope of survival.

Rational thought must prevail
Good. And if you are right your good work will be rewardedThumbsup

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